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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#481

Post by dragonwriter »

zigzigzag wrote: post #461
vkou wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Yet, Britain has done its best to deny the same right to self-determination to its subjects. Self-determination seems to be an excuse trotted out to support existing power structures. "We should secede from _____ - but nobody should secede from us." Britain and Ireland, Britain and India, Britain and Scotland... Britain had to be dra…

Uh, Britain organised a full blown referendum for Scotland after Scots voted a separatist party into their own local Parliament ... a referendum the nationalists then lost. Now perhaps there'll even be a second, despite said nationalists saying it would be a "once in a generation" event. How is that being dragged, kicking and screaming?

> Britain organised a full blown referendum for Scotland after Scots voted a separatist party into their own local Parliament ... a referendum the nationalists then lost.

A major (and perhaps decisive) point in the remain campaign in that referendum was the (quite correct) point that Scotland leaving the UK would face significant risks in remaining in the EU, since other EU members with potential breakaway regions would see that as potentially encouraging their own breakaways.

Had it been known that staying in the UK would guarantee Scotland would be taken out of the EU and not even be in a position to try to negotiate admission, the independence referendum might well have gone the other way.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#482

Post by dragonwriter »

zigzigzag wrote: post #461
vkou wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Yet, Britain has done its best to deny the same right to self-determination to its subjects. Self-determination seems to be an excuse trotted out to support existing power structures. "We should secede from _____ - but nobody should secede from us." Britain and Ireland, Britain and India, Britain and Scotland... Britain had to be dra…

Uh, Britain organised a full blown referendum for Scotland after Scots voted a separatist party into their own local Parliament ... a referendum the nationalists then lost. Now perhaps there'll even be a second, despite said nationalists saying it would be a "once in a generation" event. How is that being dragged, kicking and screaming?

> Britain organised a full blown referendum for Scotland after Scots voted a separatist party into their own local Parliament ... a referendum the nationalists then lost.

A major (and perhaps decisive) point in the remain campaign in that referendum was the (quite correct) point that Scotland leaving the UK would face significant risks in remaining in the EU, since other EU members with potential breakaway regions would see that as potentially encouraging their own breakaways.

Had it been known that staying in the UK would guarantee Scotland would be taken out of the EU and not even be in a position to try to negotiate admission, the independence referendum might well have gone the other way.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#483

Post by enraged_camel »

dingaling wrote: post #364
enraged_camel wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America, as well as all empires in history, were created and then kept together via military force. In contrast, the EU started out peacefully as a trade organization. Membership in it is purely voluntary. This makes it quite unique.

> Membership in it is purely voluntary. This makes it quite unique. NATO arose from the ashes of conflict but membership is entirely voluntary, and unlike leaving the EU there is no talk of 'punishing' those who no longer wish to remain. For example France left the NATO integrated military structure in 1996 and rejoined in 2009 without penalty.

You are comparing apples and oranges though. NATO is a purely military alliance. It has no control over the non-military affairs of member states, and little or no effect on the day-to-day lives of member states' citizens. The EU, on the other hand, acts very much like a central government for its members and exerts a lot of pressure on them to make them comply with its policies. That's why I compared it to empires.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#484

Post by gambiting »

nul_byte wrote: post #436
jdiez17 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for gambiting, but I'm also going to leave the UK as a direct consequence of Brexit. It's not that it would be impossible to get some visa if I really wanted, it's that revoking the freedom of movement sends a strong signal that they don't want us here. When I was choosing where I'd go for university, the UK wouldn't have even made the shortlist if moving here was even slightly more inconvenient than ju…

Which is completely wrong. We have no problem with engineers, doctors and skilled people coming to the UK. We just don't want an open door policy where its free entry to EU migrants with no skills at all. Let me ask you this, if the US or Canada offered you a job, would you refuse it as their requirement for a visa means they don't want you there?

Personally, I absolutely would refuse a job in US or Canada because it requires a visa. And there's a bit of a difference between requiring a visa on entry, and suddenly requiring a visa from someone who is fully settled in a country and didn't need a visa previously, don't you think?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#485

Post by dnautics »

rbehrends wrote: post #463
Nursie wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Commission is appointed by the Council, not elected by the Parliament. The Commission then originates all legislation, which Parliament can approve or not. It's not a system I would buy into voluntarily.

False. The Commission election involves several steps. First, the President is nominated. While this is technically a power of the European Council (not to be confused with the Council of the European Union), in 2004 the Parliament won the right to determine the president and the nomination by the European Council is only a formality. (Similar to the appointment of the British PM by the British monarch). In practice,…

1) you do understand that "unelected" doesn't mean "no vote was held". For example in the us system the supreme Court justices and the president's cabinet are referred to as "unelected" although they are held to confirmation votes in the us legislative assembly.

2) it doesn't strike you that this convoluted process with several confusing and in some cases similarly named governing organizations is itself the problem? It gives enough of a shade of the franchise to call itself "democratic" while insulating itself from the consequences through technicality and obfuscation of responsibility

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#486

Post by prodmerc »

folli wrote: post #429
hocuspocus wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is putting itself in a much tougher situation, this is absolutely not comparable to Switzerland and Norway. And some of the forecasts about Switzerland turned out very real. We have to agree and comply with Europe on most things, without much bargaining power. And the EURCHF swings can literally put businesses to the ground overnight.

This could also be construed as the EU acting as a hegemony and abusing their economic power to force smaller countries to accept their terms. The same can be currently observed when some EU exponents demand that the Brits get punished for pulling out.

Yeah, no shit, that's the whole point of a strong economic union.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#487

Post by prodmerc »

dalore wrote: post #244
fredley wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independence from what? Should England be an Independent state? London? The City of London?

Each British homeowner should be independent. A man's house is his castle. The could all be lords of their own empire but band together when needed to fight common enemies. Perhaps they could all group together money to help pay for common services like roads etc.

> Perhaps they could all group together money to help pay for common services like roads etc.

Could, but won't. Everyone would rather get 4x4's than pay a small fee for maintaining the roads.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#488

Post by concinds »

barrkel wrote: post #126
dustinmoris wrote: post #51

I'm a bit tired of reading doomsday messages by now. I am an European living and working in the UK and even though this affects me I have no reason to believe that things will go downwards now. If there's anything I've learned so far then that every analysis I've read couldn't have been more wrong. It almost seems like the more the UK economy doesn't collapse the more people shout even louder how bad the Brexit is. M…

I'll say what I said before the referendum: the EU cannot strive for the closest relationship possible because that would encourage other countries to leave. There must be a price, an ongoing cost. Britain is trapped with a forked strategy: it can go the Singapore route or the supplicant route. The two are incompatible and neither of them is realistically feasible. The Singapore route is what hard Brexiteers want but…

> * the EU cannot strive for the closest relationship possible because that would encourage other countries to leave. There must be a price, an ongoing cost*

Which is a symptom among many of how grossly dysfunctional and fragile the EU is. It's also compounded by the TARGET-2 mess and Germany's obligations to the South through rescue packages. Commenters above talking about the EU being a "voluntary alliance" conveniently obfuscate this.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#489

Post by prodmerc »

Xylakant wrote: post #356
gambiting wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that in an interview yesterday he said that if Brexit turns out to be a failed experiment, he will leave UK and live somewhere else. I'm sure his buddy Donald Trump will offer him a place to live.

AFAIR he wanted to emigrate to one of the eastern EU states. Irony is truly broken.

Oh no, the secret is out - Eastern Europe has sun, booze, food, mountains, snow and greenery and absolutely huge houses. The English invasion is imminent :D

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#490

Post by 794CD01 »

danmaz74 wrote: post #446
krona wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's because of wages! The point is, it is because of protectionism that Mexican and African farmers cant sell their products in to the EU at a fair price, and once outside the customs union, the poorest consumers in the UK and the poorest farmers in the world both stand to benefit. Global trade is lifting billions of the poorest people out of poverty, and long may it continue.

Try to tell that to UK farmers. Or blue collars. Or anyone working on producing things.

There's not much point in telling the truth to people so personally invested in not listening.
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