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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#471

Post by atmosx »

pimterry wrote: post #142
redsummer wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A great thing about autonomy is the ability to quickly solve national problems. Compare and contrast non-EU Iceland and EU Greece. Both came near to collapse due to financial crises. Iceland jailed the bankers and recovered. Greece is in the EU straight-jacket, the corrupt bankers became kings and the people will be in debt bondage for decades. Brexit is comparable to the Berlin Wall falling. Like the Soviet Union, t…

> Greece is in the EU straight-jacket The lack of freedom for Greece to manage its finances is because it's a member of the Euro, not the EU. That isn't really relevant to the UK. And as far as I know, neither the Euro nor EU laws limited the Greeks' ability to prosecute their bankers. Is there a reason those are connected?

> And as far as I know, neither the Euro nor EU laws limited the Greeks' ability to prosecute their bankers.

Same could be said for Ireland[1]. You might wanna take a closer look.

In the words of M. Thatcher: "He who controls interest rates in Europe, controls Europe."

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnG0bq77N8w]

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#472

Post by ed_balls »

themihai wrote: post #282
cmdkeen wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue we didn't see a war between Germany and England, or Britain as we are these days, as we were occupying them in the aftermath until 1949 and maintained a British Army of the Rhine there until 1994. The Allies also established a new Constitution and political consensus that is vehemently anti-war - witness German reluctance to be involved in fighting in recent NATO and other coalition conflicts. There's also…

A military alliance (such NATO) alone cannot prevent war between its members. The recent events(Trump threating to pull U.S. support or Turkey's behaviour) proves how fragile a such alliance is. I wouldn't be surprised to see Turkey leaving NATO and join an alliance with Russia. If a member decides that the alliance doesn't serve its national interests anymore nothing can stop it from leaving and joining a different…

After Turkey shot their plane?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#473

Post by the-dude »

afandian wrote: post #396
hiddencost wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^-- Submarine argument of the current white nationalist movement. Basic flaw: it elides "the wants of white nationalists" with "the culture of the country" and tries to imply that the wants of white nationalists are the only one that exists. A subset of people are being prodded to give up their sovereignty; a significant chunk of folks in the UK actually wanted the EU, most notably immigrants, students, young folks.

As a British citizen I have more in common culturally with my German, Swedish, Austrian, Spanish, Danish, French etc friends and colleagues than I feel with a large chunk of my own country. The people who tell me that I should be patriotic and culturally identify with them as British are the people I'd want to run a million miles from.

Oh, big thanks from The Netherlands!

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#474

Post by raverbashing »

rayiner wrote: post #308
folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

While national independence is important, at a certain point, "sovereignty" is just a code word for some politicians or businessmen (like newspaper owners) to get more power.

Your complaint seems like a good parroting of the brexiters "worries", but they are mostly uninformed complaints

"hetrogenous body politic with hundreds of millions of other people with which they share little other than said bureaucracy"

What an ignorant statement. People in the EU share a lot of common values (like the Arts, and Continental Europe has had exchange of people and ideas for a long time). Language is irrelevant unless you (not you) are an ignorant bastard that can't be bothered to learn the basics of the national language of the country you live in (like a certain ex MEP)

> People in the U.K. were very rightfully afraid

I'm sure people on the countryside that gets their information off of tabloids have carefully evaluated all sides of the question. Hopefully they know as well they won't get their budget increase of the NHS (in fact there will be staff shortages), that cost of living will increase and their dole will most likely decrease.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#475

Post by 794CD01 »

pluma wrote: post #397
Nursie wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>The problem with the structure of the EU is basically: How do you set up a supranational state without massive constitutional changes in all the member states? Because the appetite is not there for large constitutional changes. Perhaps, don't? If you can't take the people of a democracy with you on a project, perhaps it's best not to try and build such a thing anyway, and then end up with a hack? On the rest - I wo…

The reason the EU always wanted to have the UK on board had more to do with marketing than with necessity: Europe is France, England and Germany; if the EU was to be Europe, it needed those three in it or it isn't going to happen. It's also Spain and Portugal, Belgium and the Netherlands. The more the merrier. Open a history book and if a country playing a major role on the European continent is in it, it should prob…

"Played a major role in European history" is a very silly criterion. By those standards Russia, Austria, Spain, or even Turkey should be much higher on the list than Britain.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#476

Post by tomjen3 »

ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

Hopefully there will be some sort of negotiation whereby workers in the UK can work in the EU, just like people who hold Swiss citizenship can.

Then, if the experiment turns out horrible, which it probably will, you will at least have the opportunity to move abroad for a better life.

I will extend to my condolences, but give it five years and I may very well be in your boat, and even if I'm not let's face it you can't use my condolences to anything.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#477

Post by ed_balls »

Two9A wrote: post #5

Are British HN'ers taking any mitigating steps due to this whole situation? I'm currently in the process of incorporating in the Netherlands, and it turns out setting up a Ltd is a lot more expensive over there than in the UK. I just don't feel that the UK will make good use of my tax receipts any more, so I'm almost obligated to take my work elsewhere.

Moving to Switzerland.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#478

Post by EliRivers »

nul_byte wrote: post #436
jdiez17 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for gambiting, but I'm also going to leave the UK as a direct consequence of Brexit. It's not that it would be impossible to get some visa if I really wanted, it's that revoking the freedom of movement sends a strong signal that they don't want us here. When I was choosing where I'd go for university, the UK wouldn't have even made the shortlist if moving here was even slightly more inconvenient than ju…

Which is completely wrong. We have no problem with engineers, doctors and skilled people coming to the UK. We just don't want an open door policy where its free entry to EU migrants with no skills at all. Let me ask you this, if the US or Canada offered you a job, would you refuse it as their requirement for a visa means they don't want you there?

I suspect a number of people do have problems with engineers, doctors and skilled people coming to the UK. The only question is how numerous those people really are.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#479

Post by another-dave »

afandian wrote: post #403
djmobley wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would have been untenable, however, for a government to defy the will of the people as expressed in the referendum.

I have no desire to re-hash this particular argument, but the margin, 48/52 was very small. Very close to 50/50. And the turnout wasn't perfect. I've heard that only something like 30% of the eligible voters voted to leave. There was no "will of the people". The people were undecided.

And then there's the fact that Britons settled in Europe didn't have a vote.

Whatever you can say about voting rights for overseas citizens in general elections, this vote was explicitly removing rights that they are currently exercising as part of EU membership — arguably they are the most affected by the outcome, yet were disenfranchised.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#480

Post by prodmerc »

badestrand wrote: post #392
mhroth wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a US American, but could it be that the bloc (of states) has gotten so large that an individual's vote is so diluted that it feels like it's not a democracy? Especially considering the number of different nationalities and language-groups of various sizes that are supposed to be represented by that one body.

One huge difference: There just are no inner-EU discussions and there is no EU-wide media. Everything takes place at the nation level. This is probably due to 24 different languages being spoken and most people cannot speak english well. But this will not change in the next 20 years. Also heterogenity: A Texan surely has more in common with a New Yorker than a Portugese with a Latvian. This is not only about "values"…

It's mostly about the language and acquired culture. If they spoke the same language, a Portuguese and a Latvian will find that they get along extremely well.

Hell, I'd say language is the only barrier for those open minded who can learn about new cultural phenomenons and think before deciding whether they like/approve/hate/reject it...

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