UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU • Hacker News Board

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#371

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

nthcolumn wrote: post #352

nicky0 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers I often see this kind of sweeping statement here on HN as if the consequences of Brexit are an already an established fact. How do you substantiate these predicitons? Are you aware of the term "project fear"[0]? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear_(British_politics...

Maybe the small matter that every single economic authority on the matter from our foreign allies like Barack Obama, to the IMF, the Bank Of England, the Confederation of British Industry, (and endless list) said it would be an unmitigated disaster... and then there are the people who think it is a good idea... Trump, Putin, Lafarge, Gove, and not even the the PM thought it was a good idea to start off with. Project…

[deleted]

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#372

Post by jbmorgado » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

dingaling wrote: post #364

enraged_camel wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America, as well as all empires in history, were created and then kept together via military force. In contrast, the EU started out peacefully as a trade organization. Membership in it is purely voluntary. This makes it quite unique.

> Membership in it is purely voluntary. This makes it quite unique. NATO arose from the ashes of conflict but membership is entirely voluntary, and unlike leaving the EU there is no talk of 'punishing' those who no longer wish to remain. For example France left the NATO integrated military structure in 1996 and rejoined in 2009 without penalty.

What exactly are to "punishments" the EU is giving the UK that you are talking about?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#373

Post by pluma » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

Angostura wrote: post #289

martinald wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make good points, but the problem is in most countries knowledge of MEPs is close to nil. Turnout for European Parliament elections is also abysmal, in the UK 35%, NL 37% and even France and Germany are in the low 40s. It would be even lower if other elections weren't tagged along with the EU ones (eg usually the UK has local elections at the same time). There is an enormous amount of voter apathy towards the EU…

Odd isn't it. In the UK, people are so apathetic about the EU that they won't bother voting and so exercised by the EU that they want to leave.

Exactly. Either the EU is powerful and infringing on people's lives, but then it must be important. Or it's irrelevant and unimportant, but then it's not a threat. Yet the Brexit "sovereignty" argument is often reiterated alongside the complaint that the EU doesn't actually do anything.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#374

Post by demonshalo » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

lsd5you wrote: post #184

maaaats wrote: post #61

Whatever one may think of the politics or if one's country should join/leave, it's absolutely true that EU has been a big factor in keeping the peace between European nations for decades. The Nobel Peace Prize to EU got a lot of criticism because of politics, but I think it was important to show that EU has helped keep the peace.

From what deeps analysis does this certainty come from? Seems like a propaganda point to me. Of course we cannot say what would have happened without the EU or how that would have come to pass, but I think the burden is on your side for showing that Europe could have gone to war without the EU. If the question 'why peace?' was come at in a different context, in my opinion the EU would simply not rank as a primary cau…

Well said!

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#375

Post by djmobley » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:21 PM UTC

eyko wrote: post #324

nfbush wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poll was legally binding, they had to leave. Not that politics isn't broken ofc. EDIT I was wrong

The referendum was not legally binding.

It would have been untenable, however, for a government to defy the will of the people as expressed in the referendum.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#376

Post by cs02rm0 » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

mpweiher wrote: post #121

cs02rm0 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EUR hasn't exactly been rock solid against USD in recent years.

Hmm...it started at $1.1686. And now it is at $1.09, so 6% off.

It's spent more of its life than not above both figures.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#377

Post by gutnor » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

nthcolumn wrote: post #352

nicky0 wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers I often see this kind of sweeping statement here on HN as if the consequences of Brexit are an already an established fact. How do you substantiate these predicitons? Are you aware of the term "project fear"[0]? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear_(British_politics...

Maybe the small matter that every single economic authority on the matter from our foreign allies like Barack Obama, to the IMF, the Bank Of England, the Confederation of British Industry, (and endless list) said it would be an unmitigated disaster... and then there are the people who think it is a good idea... Trump, Putin, Lafarge, Gove, and not even the the PM thought it was a good idea to start off with. Project…

You could say that all those people have been wrong before and therefore could be wrong this time.

But, the problem you don't mention is that there is an element of self-fulfilling prophecy to those statements. There is no absolute objective metric that measure your country in a negotiation, it is more a market type thing. There is an element of irrationality and if all your partners think you are in trouble, then they will act toward you are if you were in trouble which may well be cause you to be in trouble.

That works at all level too. If enough people living in the UK think the UK is doomed, they will start saving money or investing in foreign countries. A slowing of consumption is a crisis, it does not matter if the slowness was caused by objective and rationale reason or not.

You can already see the effect. The last budget was another austerity budget with cuts and no investment. Despite the supposed economic nirvana that is only a few months away, the government is nevertheless bracing for trouble and that will affect the British people negatively regardless.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#378

Post by grkvlt » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

JamesMcMinn wrote: post #241

krona wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the UK's largest supermarket chain, so this it's hardly anecdotal evidence; What I said is verifiable, and doesn't rely on my own witness account. Meanwhile, a statement like My weekly supermarket bill has been going up since the Brexit vote is completely meaningless.

> anecdotal: not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research. By definition, it is anecdotal. A single piece of price data observed only by you with no evidence is not proof that EU grown vegetables are more expensive than those from Mexico. To say that someones supermarket bill going up is somehow more anecdotal than "I found asparagus from Spain that cost more than…

Not really; there are differences between the two - a price differential is something that could possibly be checked, reasonably objective fact that inferences can be drawn from. Someone's weekly supermarket choices are not fixed like the cost-of-living index basket of goods, they are entirely subjective and will change, sometimes hugely, from week to week without anything needing to alter in the world economy, and the fact that a bill is reported as being higher does not allow me to make useful predictions.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#379

Post by chippy » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

zekkius wrote: post #342

rayiner wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

Yes, humans are inclined to form tribes and to fear the other, just like our primitive ancestors. It's little reason to justify such division today, and especially not to participate in mass murder to achieve it.

>Little reason to justify such division today

I would like to agree with you but there is not evidence that humans have not changed and that

>humans are inclined to form tribes and to fear the other

remains true.

Rather we should accept we are tribal and work to ensure our collaborations, alliances and policies have that in mind. To assume that we, by virtue of just living in the present day with more technology, are more advanced and that we have progressed is a big big error.

Progress is not something that just happens. Progress is not inevitable. Societies do not naturally become more civilised. People need to work to ensure civilisation doesn't fall apart. Progress was made by people, it is the result of actions made.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#380

Post by Nursie » Wed, Mar 29, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #274

Nursie wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Commission gets a bad rap because basically it's been stuffed with cronies and friends of council members. The UK may be the worst for this, we had one Commissioner who had been disgraced out of the UK cabinet twice, and then found himself in a nice 'untouchable' position on the Commission. He's now a Lord. There are flaws in UK democracy certainly but I don't think the EU got it right. I also fundamentally have…

The problem with the structure of the EU is basically: How do you set up a supranational state without massive constitutional changes in all the member states? Because the appetite is not there for large constitutional changes. The result was basically a giant hack on top of the existing systems by leveraging the authority that the member state governments have to act as agents of their state in carrying out their du…

>>The problem with the structure of the EU is basically: How do you set up a supranational state without massive constitutional changes in all the member states? Because the appetite is not there for large constitutional changes.

Perhaps, don't?

If you can't take the people of a democracy with you on a project, perhaps it's best not to try and build such a thing anyway, and then end up with a hack?

On the rest - I would come to a similar state but from a different direction full autonomy for small democratic units, who voluntarily delegate some authority rather than get granted powers from "above"