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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#311

Post by JamesMcMinn »

omurphyevans wrote: post #197
coldtea wrote: post #93

> As Article 50 is triggered today, many European expats in Britain, as well as European-minded locals, are packing up, moving on or eyeing up their options. Brexit brain drain could spell disaster for industries like technology already facing shortages of skilled talent. Sorry, what about the brain drain when those "European expats" came from their countries into the UK? Or that doesn't matter because it was all "wi…

What about the brains who never moved now moving away? I am British and have lived here for nearly 40 years. I'm currently looking at an Irish passport (Irish wife) or maybe France. My taxes and know how will be better put to use somewhere our values (openness, tolerance, mutual respect) agree.

With a bit of luck, Scotland might offer you someone to escape to, although the weather wont be as nice as France.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#312

Post by selimthegrim »

rayiner wrote: post #308
folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

That's not what Dominic Cummings gave as his reasoning. If you read his manifesto, he cites falling educational standards and scientific and technical competitiveness and cherry-picks a few mathematicians and scientists to say so, which is ridiculous given the situation of JET, Euratom, and the expressed wishes of the vast majority of practicing scientists.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#313

Post by Keyframe »

fredley wrote: post #60
ForRealsies wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is a novelty in human history. The desire for independence, for better or worse, is human nature.

Independence from what? Should England be an Independent state? London? The City of London?

You're saying that like The City is not already independent.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#314

Post by coldtea »

mrcarrot wrote: post #262
coldtea wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> where the UK could not make a law that it wanted to because of "having to wait for Brussels"? "Having to wait" not as in actually waiting (e.g. as if Brussels would somehow slow down the pace of law-making in the UK) but in the sense UK will have to be handed down to adopt and enforce EU laws. So, wanting to make a law about X, in the sense that UK citizens see it and to their interests? Tough luck, unless it match…

That looks like a 'no', then. The UK not being able to make its own laws (as your original comment implied), seems to me to be a quite different thing to having to adopt EU directives (as you are now talking about), and I feel like it's exactly this kind of confusion (deliberate or otherwise) over the years that has contributed to the atmosphere that lead to Brexit.

>That looks like a 'no', then.

I gave you a specific example. From this point on, I consider you a troll, but for the record:

The play of words "directives vs laws" doesn't change the fact that UK law is trumped by EU law (sorry, "directives").

The fact that the UK can "make its own laws" is insignificant if those laws have to comply with EU directives (and if new EU directives invalidate UK laws).

Nobody doubts that UK government can draft laws -- the nominal process of putting words to legal documents and enforcing them.

That's not what anybody means when they contest that the UK can't draft its OWN laws. Make one's own law obviously means: "as they see fit", not "but only in accordance to EU law".

>and I feel like it's exactly this kind of confusion (deliberate or otherwise) over the years that has contributed to the atmosphere that lead to Brexit.

The only confusion is between a sovereign state that can make any law its people want (in accordance to any international treaties they've signed) and one that has to consider the law of EU above its own. And you perpetuate it purposefully.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#315

Post by stephen_g »

lhopki01 wrote: post #183
dustinmoris wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What exactly would you expect to change when nothing has actually changed yet? This is my view point: Reputable well known economists and analysts: "If the UK votes to leave then the UK will suffer great economic consequences. As soon as in the 3rd and 4th quarter of 2016 the UK will see a recession which will continue into 2017, 2018, ..." A few months later the same people: "OK, 2016 was actually quite solid, but…

The Pounds fell as an immediate result. Since then the economy has been held up by very strong consumer spending which can only last so long in the face of rising prices and increased capital inflows taking advantage of the weaker pound. The decline is not going to be sudden it'll be a gradual thing as companies move staff out and new investment fails to happen. I'm guessing that your let's chill and watch comes from…

The IMF said in 2015 that the pound was up to 20% overvalued though. I recall people talking about it being overvalued for many years before that - in fact, the pound being so highly valued (which was great for the financial industry but not that much else) probably led to a lot of the deindustrialisation over the last few decades which is probably where a lot of this really started.

Anyway, the U.K. is a fairly large advanced economy, and as a bystander outside the U.K., US and Europe, I find it pretty far fetched that what you say will occur, and that the U.K. will have problems long term outside the EU. There might be some short term pain but it's probably for the best long term.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#316

Post by kuschku »

Nursie wrote: post #136
k-mcgrady wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I am an European living and working in the UK You are lucky then as you always have the choice to leave the UK and enjoy the protections of the EU. A lot of the coverage is focussed on trade/immigration etc. but there are lots of wonderful human rights protections and consumer protections that are provided by the EU which the British government will be excited to get rid of. It's that that worries me. Take the sur…

IIRC the human rights act and membership of the ECHR are separate to the EU. I agree, there's been some awful rhetoric out of the Tories about dismantling those, but as yet they aren't under threat AFAICT

> IIRC the human rights act and membership of the ECHR are separate to the EU.

Membership in the EU requires membership in the ECHR, that’s why Britain can only after Brexit go back to the human rights of the 1600s that the elected government wants.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#317

Post by sangnoir »

mstade wrote: post #276
sangnoir wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any that evidence the optimal administrative size for people not to feel "detached from the political process" is at state level? Why not further devolve sovereignty further to the british isles, regions, cities or counties? The absurdity of it all is that the Tories say "It's good to leave the union" when the subject is Brexit, while also saying "It's not good to leave the union" when the subject is Indyref…

Not to mention the hypocrisy of voting to remain and then championing the effort to leave. UK politics is so broken right now.

> Not to mention the hypocrisy of voting to remain and then championing the effort to leave.

I'm not sure if you're referring to Scotland/Indiref 2 - but there's no hypocrisy if the voter's intention in both cases is to remain in the EU. Maybe you're referring to Theresa May? If so, I fully agree.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#318

Post by [deleted] »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #140
SirHound wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a party member - what's the best way to get more involved with the party?

Depends where you are, but I'd say: find the contact details for your local party branch, and see if you can help with campaigning for the local elections this May. At 11% in the polls we're not going to stop Brexit right now, but certainly (where I live) we have a real chance of becoming part of the local administration for the first time since 2005. From little acorns...

[deleted]

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#319

Post by enraged_camel »

CPLX wrote: post #119
ForRealsies wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is a novelty in human history. The desire for independence, for better or worse, is human nature.

It's really not. The American states were a loosely organized confederacy at outset as well. India has multiple languages. And of course the long history of empires, like the Ottoman, or Spanish control of Latin America. Yes they rise and fall, but often over the course of centuries and well out of the observational abilities of the human lifespan. There's nothing inevitable about the EU, in either direction.

America, as well as all empires in history, were created and then kept together via military force.

In contrast, the EU started out peacefully as a trade organization. Membership in it is purely voluntary. This makes it quite unique.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#320

Post by coldtea »

sangnoir wrote: post #310
coldtea wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No salvaging, what I wrote above is already in my initial argument. I'm just clarifying it further in case somebody got confused. I wrote: "you can make your own laws and not wait for some committee of 20+ countries and some Brussels bureaucrats to decide their "one size fits all solution". This means that (with the exit) the British people can make their own laws and don't have to wait for EU bureaucrats to make (on…

> "Having to wait" not as in actually waiting.. is self-contradicting or is a redefinition of a commonly used, rather straightforward word to suit your purposes.

As I wrote: "What exactly do you find difficult to parse, or think that could be read in another way? Care to give us a plausible interpretation of my initial comment that is in a different spirit to my subsequent rephrasing?"

I don't have any nefarious "purposes". If anything, I clarified what I mean in 2 follow-up comments to help anyone stuck up with the phrasing discuss the actual points.

If you don't like my use of "having to wait" you can always refer to the other 2 comments, and tell me any counter-arguments you have with my actual point as paraphrased there. Unless you want to stick to criticizing my use of english and avoid any more difficult subjects.

I still consider the initial phrasing perfectly valid for what I meant, which is: "UK people don't have to wait for EU bureaucrats to make laws for them anymore, they can now make their own laws" -- without being forced to automatically comply with any law or directive the EU puts out.

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