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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#271

Post by junto »

gambiting wrote: post #14
Two9A wrote: post #5

Are British HN'ers taking any mitigating steps due to this whole situation? I'm currently in the process of incorporating in the Netherlands, and it turns out setting up a Ltd is a lot more expensive over there than in the UK. I just don't feel that the UK will make good use of my tax receipts any more, so I'm almost obligated to take my work elsewhere.

I'm not British but I live in the UK - I have based my entire life here, family, house, job, car, everything - and a year ago, I would have never considered leaving, this is my home. But right now, I'm weighting my options. I'm a huge believer in the European Union, so why would I want to live in a country that's not in it? And increasingly, I think the answer is - I wouldn't. So although I haven't started packing ye…

I'm in the opposite situation, living in Germany as a British national. Since the EU is likely to respond in kind to any actions it takes out against EU nationals in the UK, I'm probably going to face the same in return, and it scares the crap out of me.

I've built my life over here, have a family and I really don't want to be forced back to the UK away from my children.

At present I'm considering taking out German nationality since I've pretty much been here long enough to do so, but I'm not keen on being forced to give up my British citizenship as a result. Being British is a core part of my identity.

The goalposts have been moved and after being encouraged to take advantage of freedom of movement I now find myself up against the wall as a result. This stinks.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#272

Post by rbehrends »

dnautics wrote: post #258
Svip wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

The eu's Parliament has de facto no power and all of the authority rests with the European commission, which is an unelected entity.

False.

1. The European Commission is elected by the European Parliament.

2. The European Commission has the power to initiate legislation, but EU legislation is enacted by the European Parliament (lower chamber of the legislature) and the Council of the European Union (upper chamber of the legislature). This is why EU legislation begins with "REGULATION/DIRECTIVE ... OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL" [1].

[1] Example: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2016/679/oj

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#273

Post by Xylakant »

oakesm9 wrote: post #59
topbanana wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting a visa isn't so onerous is it? Compared with the hassle of upping your roots and moving your family?

From speaking to other EU nationals who've made their home in the UK it's more feeling like they're no longer welcome than the legal burden which is making them think about leaving.

It's a switch in the power structure. My wife is polish, working and living in germany. We don't need to ask for anything, no permissions for her to live here, to work, healthcare, taxes, all the same as for me. The most notable thing she can't do is vote in the national election (though she can vote in local elections). There is no interference from a government employee who may have a bad day - it's a right, not something you need to apply for.

Requiring a visa or a work permit would switch that around. It may expire and not be renewed for a formality. It certainly would make our live more miserable by introducing an extra element of uncertainty.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#274

Post by vidarh »

Nursie wrote: post #254
pluma wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The often cited claim that the EU is undemocratic stems from a difference of opinion what "democratic" actually means. First of all: there is barely any nation that is truly democratic in the historic sense of the word. Most democracies are actually representational systems: citizens don't vote on every single issue, they elect someone to represent them and vote in their name. Who each representative actually represe…

The Commission gets a bad rap because basically it's been stuffed with cronies and friends of council members. The UK may be the worst for this, we had one Commissioner who had been disgraced out of the UK cabinet twice, and then found himself in a nice 'untouchable' position on the Commission. He's now a Lord. There are flaws in UK democracy certainly but I don't think the EU got it right. I also fundamentally have…

The problem with the structure of the EU is basically: How do you set up a supranational state without massive constitutional changes in all the member states? Because the appetite is not there for large constitutional changes.

The result was basically a giant hack on top of the existing systems by leveraging the authority that the member state governments have to act as agents of their state in carrying out their duties under treaties.

More and more power has been handed to the EU Parliament with various treaty changes etc., but there is a limit there in that ultimately without enshrining the power of the EU Parliament in the member states constitutions, it is impossible to cede the kind of power vested in the member state governments to the EU Parliament.

So the irony is that a lot of the centralisation of power in EU organs is a result of opposition to further integration. Pretty much nobody likes the current structure of the EU. The problem is people dislike it different reasons: Some because they want the power handed back to the individual states. Some because they want a federalised EU or similar.

The irony there is that Brexit might end up a catalyst for tighter integration, because the UK has been one of the biggest brakes on that process.

> I look at Switzerland and Iceland with envy - the people can achieve change there. The USA, EU, even UK? Not so much.

I don't agree with this. There are policy areas we can't easily change unilaterally, sure. But at the same time, when a change is agreed there is far more power behind it. Some policies only make sense to make at large scale, some makes to push down as far as possible. Ideally I'd like to see the end of modern day nation states through devolution of as much power as possible. But some decisions will still need to be taken at a higher level.

As it stands, in the UK there is still plently of power at the local level, and while I am very upset at Brexit, the UK at least has one thing going for it in an ongoing long lasting process of gradually devolving more and more power to local councils and regions.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#275

Post by tobltobs »

bontoJR wrote: post #92
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

These are pretty much the same forecasts Switzerland and Norway were supposed to face when they rejected to join the EU... people losing jobs, Swiss Franc falling, export collapsing, etc... well, it went a little bit in a different way. OFC leaving is totally a different thing from not being in at all, but still... there are going to be pro and cons, but the economy will adapt as happened in Switzerland and Norway. S…

Note that Switzerland last year had a similar situation after the MEI referendum and they prefered not to pull the plug on the bilateral treaties.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#276

Post by mstade »

sangnoir wrote: post #242
folli wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the more people feel detached from the political process, the less responsible they feel to take an active part in the process. This is why I believe that a regional government is to be preferred over a centralistic government. I'm aware that not all problems can be solved on a regional level, but those that can, should. This is especially true on a cultural more diverse landscape such as Europe comp…

Is there any that evidence the optimal administrative size for people not to feel "detached from the political process" is at state level? Why not further devolve sovereignty further to the british isles, regions, cities or counties? The absurdity of it all is that the Tories say "It's good to leave the union" when the subject is Brexit, while also saying "It's not good to leave the union" when the subject is Indyref…

Not to mention the hypocrisy of voting to remain and then championing the effort to leave.

UK politics is so broken right now.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#277

Post by unethical_ban »

untog wrote: post #266
coldtea wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Independence" it's not about some lone man bellowing "ME". It's about like-minded people sharing a common culture (as developed historically up to some point), over a hodge podge of states being united by sheer power or top-down dictum. Empires and kings ruled thanks to tons of bloodshed and continued vigilance and stomping of revolts. The "Great Britain" itself is a bad example -- it lost colony after colony due to…

> It's about like-minded people sharing a common culture (as developed historically up to some point) But it's that "some point" that makes everything wishy washy. If I'm in favour of Scottish independence I cite common Scottish culture. If I'm in favour of the UK I cite the hundreds of years of shared culture. If I'm in favour of the EU I cite decades of shared culture. None of these are wrong, despite being in clea…

Everything is wishy-washy. If you don't believe in complete individual sovereignty (no State) or in complete governmnent ownership and control of all production and thought, then you believe there are lines between individual freedom and societal coherence.

So wishy-washy!

It's ALWAYS about the line and where it is. I think sharing a language is an important factor in the ability to share culture and values. So I might put the line closer to the UK than to the EU in your example.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#278

Post by danielvf »

sgift wrote: post #255
danielvf wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know there has been intra-nation peace in western Europe since the end of WWII, but how do we know it was due to the EU? Both the peace and the EU would seem to as easily explained by the post war situation where European nations were now second tier economicly, and threatened by a big external nation. The reward for war was no longer there, and the need for cooperation was high.

All of your points also existed before the second world war. Russia was already a big empire, other big empires existed throughout the history of Europe. That never stopped European countries from attacking each other. Basically, almost everything else has staid the same, the only change was the EU and its predecessors came into existence after WW2. That's certainly not a proof (it's impossible to proof such thins wi…

I don't think either one of those was true after after WW1.

Russia, though large, was not regarded as a serious military threat to Europe. When attacked by Russia, Poland (!) beat Russia in the 1920's and gained half of the Ukraine and half of Belarus in the subsequent peace treaty.

An although a European nation was no longer the world largest economy, they were still regarded as the powers that mattered. The Washington Naval Treaty on arms control between the wars even gave the US a ship allocation on par with a European nation.

The world at the time still revolved around Europe and the actions of European powers. To be premininet in Europe was to lead the world.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#279

Post by vidarh »

bontoJR wrote: post #92
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

These are pretty much the same forecasts Switzerland and Norway were supposed to face when they rejected to join the EU... people losing jobs, Swiss Franc falling, export collapsing, etc... well, it went a little bit in a different way. OFC leaving is totally a different thing from not being in at all, but still... there are going to be pro and cons, but the economy will adapt as happened in Switzerland and Norway. S…

For Norway's case that is a meaningless statement.

Via the EEA, Norway accepted pretty much all of the EU with the exception of the Common Agricultural Policy and parts of the fishing policies, and the Euro.

Unlike the UK, Norway is part of Schengen, and outside of the areas mentioned above, Norway has fewer special considerations and opt-outs from EU directives than the UK has.

If the UK negotiates the same deal that Norway has, the UK will probably do ok, but that would in many areas mean tighter integration into the EU than currently. E.g. joining Schengen, dropping various opt-outs etc. It would also mean maintaining full freedom of movement.

I'd love to see that happen if only to hear the whining from the Leaver crowd, many of whom held up the Norwegian model as an alternative to convince people to vote Leave.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#280

Post by Chaebixi »

Svip wrote: post #181
folli wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely see the advantages of having common standards, tariff agreements etc. to make trade across borders easier (i.e. something akin to the European Economic Area). I'm however also a proponent of federalism, because I believe that for a democracy to truly work it is necessary that the people still feel responsible for their votes and their decisions. This is something which I'm missing in centralised and unit…

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

> But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

I'm not a European, but could it be that the bloc has gotten so large that an individual's vote is so diluted that it feels like it's not a democracy? Especially considering the number of different nationalities and language-groups of various sizes that are supposed to be represented by that one body.

I think federalism is a good idea because, at the end of the day, I want to be ruled by a government that represents my community, not some abstract mass of people.

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