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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

bbc.com

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#111

Post by corford »

OJFord wrote: post #53
aembleton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the world is outside of the EU. I don't think this correlation can stand.

GP referred to European countries outside the EU though; not 'the world ... outside of the EU'. The EU forms 510/743 millions of people in Europe, so GP's point is more valid than you claim.

GP's muddled claim was "Autonomy is crucial to happiness". Given Denmark (an EU country) is number two (and has been number one three times in the past), his claim is wrong on it's face.

Edit: and that's without even addressing the ridiculous straw man of "autonomy" (all sovereign countries are autonomous - no country is forced to be or remain an EU member against their will)

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#112

Post by parkersweb »

Two9A wrote: post #5

Are British HN'ers taking any mitigating steps due to this whole situation? I'm currently in the process of incorporating in the Netherlands, and it turns out setting up a Ltd is a lot more expensive over there than in the UK. I just don't feel that the UK will make good use of my tax receipts any more, so I'm almost obligated to take my work elsewhere.

To be honest - one of the most disheartening parts of this experience is the lack of coherent opposition to the process being carried out. It's like we've moved quickly from a slender majority in a doubtful referendum to an almost entire acceptance that the consequence must be the 'hard' brexit narrative.

The only voices actively trying to counter that are former prime ministers (sorry Tony - right message, really really wrong guy) and the Lib Dems who lack the political presence at the moment.

When do we get a meaningful opposition to this?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#113

Post by lhopki01 »

OJFord wrote: post #53
aembleton wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the world is outside of the EU. I don't think this correlation can stand.

GP referred to European countries outside the EU though; not 'the world ... outside of the EU'. The EU forms 510/743 millions of people in Europe, so GP's point is more valid than you claim.

He also selectively quoted facts. 4/10 in the top 10 are EU countries.

Though if you want to actually look at the information all the nordics are in there of which 3 are in the EU and 2 are in the EEA.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#114

Post by Svip »

coldtea wrote: post #101
JamesMcMinn wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven't been affected by the changes because nothing has happened yet. This is the start of the negotiations to decide what those changes will be. And when I say nothing has happened yet, I mean apart from the massive drop in the value of sterling and inflation massively outstripping wage increases. I assume you're based in London, which means you're fairly isolated from the social changes that have happened acro…

And I bet you nothing will happen in 2 or 3 or 5 years either. Except for the "massive drop in the value of sterling" which is due to market and media hysteria, which will correct itself.

If nothing happens, what was the point then?

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#115

Post by agumonkey »

ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

It's also a very weakly motivated experiment. At least based on the morning after TV appearance of Nigel Farrage. I've rarely seen such a buffon face on someone. Less than 24h after celebrating the "win".

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#116

Post by ck425 »

JamesMcMinn wrote: post #78
dustinmoris wrote: post #51

I'm a bit tired of reading doomsday messages by now. I am an European living and working in the UK and even though this affects me I have no reason to believe that things will go downwards now. If there's anything I've learned so far then that every analysis I've read couldn't have been more wrong. It almost seems like the more the UK economy doesn't collapse the more people shout even louder how bad the Brexit is. M…

You haven't been affected by the changes because nothing has happened yet. This is the start of the negotiations to decide what those changes will be. And when I say nothing has happened yet, I mean apart from the massive drop in the value of sterling and inflation massively outstripping wage increases. I assume you're based in London, which means you're fairly isolated from the social changes that have happened acro…

Not to mention the majority of people reading HN are in favorable economic situations, so will be among the least effected if/when shit hits the fan.

That said there is a large opportunity for change post EU if we go after it. Unfortunately that would require strong unified leadership from the left / non-tories.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#117

Post by danielvf »

maaaats wrote: post #61

Whatever one may think of the politics or if one's country should join/leave, it's absolutely true that EU has been a big factor in keeping the peace between European nations for decades. The Nobel Peace Prize to EU got a lot of criticism because of politics, but I think it was important to show that EU has helped keep the peace.

I know there has been intra-nation peace in western Europe since the end of WWII, but how do we know it was due to the EU?

Both the peace and the EU would seem to as easily explained by the post war situation where European nations were now second tier economicly, and threatened by a big external nation. The reward for war was no longer there, and the need for cooperation was high.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#118

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

dustinmoris wrote: post #51

I'm a bit tired of reading doomsday messages by now. I am an European living and working in the UK and even though this affects me I have no reason to believe that things will go downwards now. If there's anything I've learned so far then that every analysis I've read couldn't have been more wrong. It almost seems like the more the UK economy doesn't collapse the more people shout even louder how bad the Brexit is. M…

Sure, what could possibly go wrong with a radical decision taken by a narrow majority, with a significant part of the voters that supported it having racist motivations (even if the concept of Brexit itself is not racist), others motivated by lies (millions to the NHS et al) and the vast majority of economists describing it as a shoot in the foot?

I don't think it will be "doomsday" either, but I think believing that things won't go downwards is an exercise in self-fooling.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#119

Post by CPLX »

ForRealsies wrote: post #32
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

The EU is a novelty in human history. The desire for independence, for better or worse, is human nature.

It's really not. The American states were a loosely organized confederacy at outset as well. India has multiple languages. And of course the long history of empires, like the Ottoman, or Spanish control of Latin America. Yes they rise and fall, but often over the course of centuries and well out of the observational abilities of the human lifespan. There's nothing inevitable about the EU, in either direction.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#120

Post by agumonkey »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #57
ForRealsies wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is a novelty in human history. The desire for independence, for better or worse, is human nature.

I wonder if the "desire for independence" is simply born out of the usual ingroup/outgroup dynamics - convince people they're being ruled by an outgroup, and suddenly they want to be independent. The problem with this being that group borders are petty flexible and easily manipulated.

It's a balance thing, you cannot survive without your environment, but you have to find a suitable one to avoid dying too.
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