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Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

nytimes.com

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Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#51

Post by Nomentatus »

foldr wrote: post #48
INTPenis wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very cool. 45 years old in good shape in those days must have been a status symbol in itself. 45 years today is pretty wise already but back then I'm sure your average wandering 45 year old knew basic field medical techniques just to stay alive.

Not necessarily. A lot of people died young, which lowered the average lifespan considerably, but once you got through your childhood and teens, your chances of living to an old age were reasonably high.

Actually, take away infant mortality (and maybe even not) and their lifespans exceed ours on average. Agriculture doesn't provide the same level of nutrition, no large groups to spread disease, etc.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#52

Post by int_19h »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #31
int_19h wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of a metal axe in that time was immense. It seems unlikely that such sentiments would be sufficient justification to just leave it there.

I tend to assume if metal tools were extremely expensive then they would be not commonly in use. 3500 years after Otzi, there are Roman prices for stuff. https://www.academia.edu/23644199/New_English_translation_of... This gives a days unskilled labor at 25 Denarii, where a lb of Hammered Bronze was 60 Denarii.

3500 years is a very big difference in terms of metallurgy, though.

Note that all other blades that Otzi carried were stone. I suspect they were used a lot more than that axe. On the other hand, if you're really someone who moves a lot alone or in small groups, having (and using) a tool like that would make the difference between having and not having dinner quite often, for example. In essence, the value of the tool comes from actually using it.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#53

Post by fapjacks »

salesguy222 wrote: post #49
fapjacks wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with him being a kind of raider, only because what does everyone do in Oblivion when they murder one of those cave raiders? Loot his corpse of anything valuable. Nobody looted Ötzi's corpse. I found the argument in the article of some kind of domestic incident compelling, especially in light of his valuables not being taken. And I think the "human sacrifice" argument seems like a real stretch.

I appreciate your perspective, and that of the commenter below as well! I still think it is possible for Otzi to be a bandit/raider. He did not have a body for agricultural work, and he had clothes designed for surviving harsh (non-domestic climates). My hypothesis is that he probably pissed off a few too many people and his reputation began spreading from town to town possibly. He probably stole food and goods at ni…

Interesting. I grok what you're saying now and it does make sense. And though I do agree that people do exist who put honor before everything else, we know that kings were buried with the kinds of items that Ötzi had, especially the copper axe. It would have to be some kind of Klingon to put honor before looting that. I totally grok your perspective, though, and I don't think it's unreasonable.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#54

Post by fapjacks »

INTPenis wrote: post #44
fapjacks wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree with him being a kind of raider, only because what does everyone do in Oblivion when they murder one of those cave raiders? Loot his corpse of anything valuable. Nobody looted Ötzi's corpse. I found the argument in the article of some kind of domestic incident compelling, especially in light of his valuables not being taken. And I think the "human sacrifice" argument seems like a real stretch.

Exactly, the lack of looting is the biggest detail in this case imo. To me it speaks of a panicked crime. Combined with the season, spring or summer, I don't believe the crime was panicked due to bad weather conditions. Maybe it was a very young person taking a revenge shot at him because of something Ötzi had done in the near past.

I think so too, INTPenis. With respect to your "young person taking revenge", I would think that a young(er) person would loot the belongings, and that an old(er) person would have the social/intellectual wherewithal not to come back to town carrying the chief's cousin's copper axe. I realize I'm speculating wildly here, though I completely agree that Ötzi not having been looted is the biggest detail.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#55

Post by emmelaich »

wapz wrote: post #22
emmelaich wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that he was an senior elder of his tribe who was either challenged or challenged the leader. (evidence: the expensive furs) He lost (contrary to the article), was expelled and was followed by some younger member or members and killed to make sure he didn't come back. (evidence - no good bow and only some headed arrows) His belongings were left either out of respect or that the killers didn't want it know…

I'm not going to argue that you're wrong, but I don't know if your evidence is very conclusive. Do we know back then the furs were that valuable? I can imagine a lot of hunting going on and lots of fur to be crafted. It's still labor intensive but is the fur worth more than the meat? I don't know what him crafting a bow means either. It surely means he didn't have one at the time and was making a new one. He could ha…

Agreed, in no way conclusive.

I have a bunch of theories that fit the facts.

I think that's my favourite, and coincidentally the most entertaining.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#56

Post by emmelaich »

wapz wrote: post #22
emmelaich wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that he was an senior elder of his tribe who was either challenged or challenged the leader. (evidence: the expensive furs) He lost (contrary to the article), was expelled and was followed by some younger member or members and killed to make sure he didn't come back. (evidence - no good bow and only some headed arrows) His belongings were left either out of respect or that the killers didn't want it know…

I'm not going to argue that you're wrong, but I don't know if your evidence is very conclusive. Do we know back then the furs were that valuable? I can imagine a lot of hunting going on and lots of fur to be crafted. It's still labor intensive but is the fur worth more than the meat? I don't know what him crafting a bow means either. It surely means he didn't have one at the time and was making a new one. He could ha…

Agreed, in no way conclusive.

I have a bunch of theories that fit the facts.

I think that's my favourite, and coincidentally the most entertaining.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#57

Post by emmelaich »

wapz wrote: post #22
emmelaich wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that he was an senior elder of his tribe who was either challenged or challenged the leader. (evidence: the expensive furs) He lost (contrary to the article), was expelled and was followed by some younger member or members and killed to make sure he didn't come back. (evidence - no good bow and only some headed arrows) His belongings were left either out of respect or that the killers didn't want it know…

I'm not going to argue that you're wrong, but I don't know if your evidence is very conclusive. Do we know back then the furs were that valuable? I can imagine a lot of hunting going on and lots of fur to be crafted. It's still labor intensive but is the fur worth more than the meat? I don't know what him crafting a bow means either. It surely means he didn't have one at the time and was making a new one. He could ha…

Agreed, in no way conclusive.

I have a bunch of theories that fit the facts.

I think that's my favourite, and coincidentally the most entertaining.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#58

Post by nickbauman »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #31
int_19h wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of a metal axe in that time was immense. It seems unlikely that such sentiments would be sufficient justification to just leave it there.

I tend to assume if metal tools were extremely expensive then they would be not commonly in use. 3500 years after Otzi, there are Roman prices for stuff. https://www.academia.edu/23644199/New_English_translation_of... This gives a days unskilled labor at 25 Denarii, where a lb of Hammered Bronze was 60 Denarii.

3500 after Otzi is late Iron age. Otzi was pre Bronze-age. Borderline neolithic.
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