Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#271

Post by davidf18 » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:13 PM UTC

specialp wrote: post #212

CPLX wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though it's possible that you're correct on this specific issue, you've offered absolutely no support for your argument. Consider the possibility that the strong streak of instinctive union bashing that you see in typical professional class culture in the U.S. is very much the creation of decades of aggressive PR effort by those who consider unions threatening.

I live in NY and have lived here my entire life. I am very pro union but not pro NYC construction unions. If you have ever been on a job site, there are arcane rules that pad their pockets. Want to plug in a computer in a finished room? Sorry you are going to need an electrician for that. If you do it anyway they will bill you for the electrician coming over anyway. Need to get in the building? Well the elevator oper…

The first part of the 2nd Ave subway line to 96th St in NYC was completed a couple of months ago. The cost of the extension was prohibitively expensive because of unions. Europe is able to build subways with much less cost per mile than NYC.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#272

Post by CPLX » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:18 PM UTC

davidf18 wrote: post #271

specialp wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NY and have lived here my entire life. I am very pro union but not pro NYC construction unions. If you have ever been on a job site, there are arcane rules that pad their pockets. Want to plug in a computer in a finished room? Sorry you are going to need an electrician for that. If you do it anyway they will bill you for the electrician coming over anyway. Need to get in the building? Well the elevator oper…

The first part of the 2nd Ave subway line to 96th St in NYC was completed a couple of months ago. The cost of the extension was prohibitively expensive because of unions. Europe is able to build subways with much less cost per mile than NYC.

> The cost of the extension was prohibitively expensive because of unions. Europe is able to build subways with much less cost per mile than NYC

You mean the same Europe that has incredibly powerful public sector unions?

Maybe a thing they don't have is a political system run by a group of mindless plutocratic politicians that shout "free markets" as the solution to social problems while practicing crony capitalism. They also don't have the Cuomo family.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#273

Post by CPLX » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:23 PM UTC

Fricken wrote: post #196

notgood wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh my, I'm afraid they exist[0], and there are already NYC unions trying to ban them: http://readwrite.com/2017/01/17/new-york-ban-self-driving-tl... [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHbMt6WDhQ8

Waymo is still developing the technology, they can only go 5000 miles on average without the need for human intervention. They're getting close, but they don't exist yet.

Maybe some day they'll even be able to drive 5000 different miles instead of driving the same 5 miles 1000 times.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#274

Post by CPLX » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:34 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #250

tombone12 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No parent comment criticizing unions does it without the implication that they shouldn't exist. This is most easily seen by the total absence of any mention of a specific union, thus direction the objections towards the concept itself rather than any specific version of it.

All unions, as a general concept, tend toward corruption. Just like corporations do. The concept itself is flawed. But flawed does not mean it shouldn't exist.

Unions are a way of concentrating the power of labor.

All power corrupts. The observation proves nothing about unions specifically. If you take away power from unions it just goes and does its corrupting somewhere else.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#275

Post by CPLX » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:36 PM UTC

jaredhansen wrote: post #160

thekevan wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but remember this is New York City. In the original article, when the crane was first used on jobs and word got around about it being less expensive and required fewer operator man hours, his job sites were picketed by unions. There were anonymous calls to 311 reporting violations but when the inspectors got there, they didn't find anything wrong. In my mind, I'm skeptical and it could have been the cranes or i…

Here's a fun story about union influence in NYC (with a little twist I hope you'll indulge[1]): In 2005, I moved into a 19th-floor apartment in lower Manhattan. My girlfriend and I spent about 12 hours at IKEA getting everything needed to furnish the place. By the time we finished taking (2!) taxies back from Jersey with all my stuff, it was about midnight on a Friday night. It took another hour or so to schlep every…

Give the doorman the $50 he was trying to hit you up for and get on with your life. Welcome to New York.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#276

Post by eru » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:41 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #272

davidf18 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first part of the 2nd Ave subway line to 96th St in NYC was completed a couple of months ago. The cost of the extension was prohibitively expensive because of unions. Europe is able to build subways with much less cost per mile than NYC.

> The cost of the extension was prohibitively expensive because of unions. Europe is able to build subways with much less cost per mile than NYC You mean the same Europe that has incredibly powerful public sector unions? Maybe a thing they don't have is a political system run by a group of mindless plutocratic politicians that shout "free markets" as the solution to social problems while practicing crony capitalism.…

Yes, the same Europe. I don't know about the French, but the unions in Germany and Scandinavia are quite a bit more pro-business than their American counterparts.

Hong Kong and Singapore build infrastructure for quite cheap. And there they don't need to shout about `free markets': the government mostly allows them already.

I'm totally with you on the crony-capitalism bashing.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#277

Post by Arizhel » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 2:30 PM UTC

Doxin wrote: post #266

briandear wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same goes for a Hollywood movie set. I worked on a film in the late 1990s as the film runner and and God forbid that I went into the truck to get an extension cord (I wasn't a "qualified" gaffer.) "Hey can you grab me a [light] gel from that box right next to your foot?" "No sorry, I am part of Camera, I can't touch that, the gaffers have to do that." And this set was in Texas.. I got paid $200 per day to literal…

Let me correct that slightly: some unions have rules that add significant cost. It's unfair to blame the entire concept of unions for a small number of dysfunctional unions.

Wrong. This is completely normal in America, and it's entirely fair to blame all unions for it. The catch is, it's an American phenomenon; it doesn't apply to unions in other, better-run countries like Germany.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#278

Post by unit91 » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #93

Zach_the_Lizard wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the unions. On my way to work, I pass by a giant inflatable rat inflated by a gas motor that's hauled around by a truck. It's rather annoying when its tail gets loose and covers the sidewalk, as can happen on windy days when it's not tied down appropriately. It's probably 10 or 12 feet tall, at least, and the tail is maybe 12 feet long or longer. (3 feet is about one meter for those in metric land). It's parked…

Though it's possible that you're correct on this specific issue, you've offered absolutely no support for your argument. Consider the possibility that the strong streak of instinctive union bashing that you see in typical professional class culture in the U.S. is very much the creation of decades of aggressive PR effort by those who consider unions threatening.

> Consider the possibility that the strong streak of instinctive union bashing that you see in typical professional class culture in the U.S. is very much the creation of decades of aggressive PR effort by those who consider unions threatening.

This is a perfect example of the genetic fallacy. How or why a person came to hold a view tells us nothing about the truth of the view. Even if it did, possibility shouldn't be taken as (or a as defeater for) plausibility. It's possible that unknown to you, your parents are aliens and you were hatched on another planet. It's plausible that you're a human and so are your parents. Similarly, even if it's possible we're all duped by aggressive PR, until I see a very compelling plausibility argument my current experience of observing unreasonable union interference grounds my belief that unions often engage in crude, counterproductive behavior.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#279

Post by ythn » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 2:51 PM UTC

unit91 wrote: post #278

CPLX wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though it's possible that you're correct on this specific issue, you've offered absolutely no support for your argument. Consider the possibility that the strong streak of instinctive union bashing that you see in typical professional class culture in the U.S. is very much the creation of decades of aggressive PR effort by those who consider unions threatening.

> Consider the possibility that the strong streak of instinctive union bashing that you see in typical professional class culture in the U.S. is very much the creation of decades of aggressive PR effort by those who consider unions threatening. This is a perfect example of the genetic fallacy. How or why a person came to hold a view tells us nothing about the truth of the view. Even if it did, possibility shouldn't b…

> unreasonable union interference grounds my belief that unions often engage in crude, counterproductive behavior.

They definitely do.

It's like what attorneys do with their clients. They try to sweep their clients' faults under the run and play to their strengths. "Unions are great! They empower and protect the common workers against greedy selfish corporations seeking to exploit them!"

Yet a lot of people on HN are business owners, and they see the other side of the coin - that unions are not always cooperative and sometimes can have a parasitic relationship with the business that borderlines and indeed passes the "unreasonable" threshold.

Re: Why is this little construction crane illegal in New York City? (2016)

#280

Post by RHSeeger » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

cup wrote: post #237

specialp wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NY and have lived here my entire life. I am very pro union but not pro NYC construction unions. If you have ever been on a job site, there are arcane rules that pad their pockets. Want to plug in a computer in a finished room? Sorry you are going to need an electrician for that. If you do it anyway they will bill you for the electrician coming over anyway. Need to get in the building? Well the elevator oper…

> you have ever been on a job site, there are arcane rules that pad their pockets. Want to plug in a computer in a finished room? Sorry you are going to need an electrician for that. If you do it anyway they will bill you for the electrician coming over anyway. If you've ever worked in construction you'd know these "arcane" rules are there because someone died before they existed. Construction is one of the most dang…

"Somebody died once" is not a valid reason for everyone thereafter to have to pay $80 (an hour of electrician's time) to plug in their computer to the outlet that comes as part of their trade show booth... or the same to have someone come vacuum their 10 sq ft piece of carpet before the show opens. Both of these are things someone could easily do on their own, but aren't allowed to because someone died once.