Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#61

Post by mcintyre1994 » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 8:21 AM UTC

Larrikin wrote: post #19

dangrossman wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. You need to have the Amazon Go app installed on your phone, and you scan your phone at what looks like a turnstile to enter the store, from the store's PR videos. Then the store keeps track of what you pick up using computer vision, your phone and various sensors, and charges everything you walk out with to your account. Unless you can avoid the requirement to load an app and scan it to get into the store, walki…

So children are not allowed in the store? What's stopping someone from just stuffing their kid full of high end goods and asking them to wait in the car?

I could see it being a case of scan, pass the phone back to child/whoever's with you (or scan it their side for them), then they're all registered on that account. A bit like plane digital boarding cards. That does remove a potential fraud signal though so maybe they have a better idea.

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#62

Post by arjie » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 8:47 AM UTC

boulos wrote: post #57

jodrellblank wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people will turn up to play basketball, while someone in a bear suit steals things.

It was a gorilla suit, not a bear suit ;): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo

There's a variant with a moonwalking bear which is rather well known: https://youtu.be/Ahg6qcgoay4

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#63

Post by djhworld » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 9:03 AM UTC

rileymat2 wrote: post #27

It is not the same, but our local Sam's Club has an app that you can scan all items as you go, and pay inside the app. Then as you leave an employee checks the receipt like they do for everyone else anyway. It works great.

How is that any better though? The receipt checking probably takes just as long as scanning the items through the till.

Unless they just take a cursory glance and just say "well whatever you're probably trustworthy"

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#64

Post by flashman » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 9:04 AM UTC

zitterbewegung wrote: post #48

beambot wrote: post #26

All it takes is a loss factor of a few percent, and the entire model breaks down. This is the same reason that long-range RFID (UHF RFID) never worked for cashierless checkout too. You couldn't ensure 100% coverage. Some tags just couldn't be read -- either due to adversarial tactics (eg. shielding with your body) or material properties (eg. metal) -- and the engineering countermeasures to overcome these challenges m…

I have seen supermarket chains do away with automated checkout (Jewel which parent company is Albertsons) systems because they increased loss factors.

Here in Australia our two major chains just convinced the police to station publicly-funded officers in the checkout area: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/home/crackdown-of-self-serv...

Cut staff numbers without having to pay for increased security! That's just good business sense.

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#65

Post by doodyhead » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 9:09 AM UTC

rileymat2 wrote: post #27

It is not the same, but our local Sam's Club has an app that you can scan all items as you go, and pay inside the app. Then as you leave an employee checks the receipt like they do for everyone else anyway. It works great.

I wonder if a "Trusted Traveller"-style program would work. You go through a small vetting process, and you build a solid history with receipt checking through their app, and then you're assumed trusted, maybe with more occasional checking, and higher trust levels?

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#66

Post by ProblemFactory » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 9:15 AM UTC

djhworld wrote: post #63

rileymat2 wrote: post #27

It is not the same, but our local Sam's Club has an app that you can scan all items as you go, and pay inside the app. Then as you leave an employee checks the receipt like they do for everyone else anyway. It works great.

How is that any better though? The receipt checking probably takes just as long as scanning the items through the till. Unless they just take a cursory glance and just say "well whatever you're probably trustworthy"

At a shop I visit often, the receipt checking is random, triggered by some prediction algorithm based on your history and current cart contents when you swipe your membership card when you exit the store. You get selected once out of perhaps 20 to 50 visits.

As a bonus, you get a small candy bar or similar "sorry we bothered you" gift if the check does not find any errors.

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#67

Post by IanCal » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 9:30 AM UTC

trome wrote: post #44

dangrossman wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. You need to have the Amazon Go app installed on your phone, and you scan your phone at what looks like a turnstile to enter the store, from the store's PR videos. Then the store keeps track of what you pick up using computer vision, your phone and various sensors, and charges everything you walk out with to your account. Unless you can avoid the requirement to load an app and scan it to get into the store, walki…

What about using worthless phones and masks? For under $5 I can get an Android or a dozen of them, load them up with this app, and be good to go. Need a credit card? No trouble, get a prepaid card for $1.95 at the corner store, load 5 dollars on it, auth it with the Amazon account, and pull $4.99 off it. Then go get some steaks on the house!

I don't understand what this gets you. You'd be on camera, accessing the store using your own amazon account, wearing a mask. Do you think you wouldn't be caught?

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#68

Post by gambiting » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 9:36 AM UTC

cobookman wrote: post #56

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RFID is expensive. Even buying the cheapest transponders in bulk, you're still looking at $0.01-$0.05 per label - that's enough to kill the concept entirely for high-volume, low-value goods such as supermarket/grocery store goods where the profit-margins are thin enough as it is, if not loss-making.

How much per item do you pay for cashier staff though. Might be the same as the tag cost. Also in regards to RAIN RFID tags vs dumb print tags yep you are talking about a 5 cent increase. But you also lift inventory accuracy from ~70% to 99.9%.

You still need some staff, sometimes items are damaged, the item doesn't scan, the payment won't go through, the customer changed their mind etc etc. You can't get rid of all staff.

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#69

Post by ralfd » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 10:23 AM UTC

ProblemFactory wrote: post #66

djhworld wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that any better though? The receipt checking probably takes just as long as scanning the items through the till. Unless they just take a cursory glance and just say "well whatever you're probably trustworthy"

At a shop I visit often, the receipt checking is random, triggered by some prediction algorithm based on your history and current cart contents when you swipe your membership card when you exit the store. You get selected once out of perhaps 20 to 50 visits. As a bonus, you get a small candy bar or similar "sorry we bothered you" gift if the check does not find any errors.

And if there is an error?

Re: Amazon Delays Opening of Cashierless Store to Work Out Kinks

#70

Post by throwanem » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 10:41 AM UTC

notgood wrote: post #16

crooked-v wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can already foresee a dozen people showing up in zebra-striped hoodies to see what happens when they shop together.

They realize that amazon now measures the height of each customer, also has a miniature drone following them around and each floor tile measure the weight of the people for that extra data point, oh and some have employees disguised as customers whom help the system when in doubt.

'Who help'. 'Whom' is the objective case, parallel to 'them'; a good way to test the correctness of a particular use is to substitute the latter for the former and see if the sentence is still grammatical.