Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#411

Post by M_Grey » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 12:43 AM UTC

FT_intern wrote: post #328

shawn-furyan wrote: post #278

It is a continual frustration to me that the male-dominated tech community is so bad with these issues. Predictably, the top comment on this post that tries to move forward on a very real problem that has been empirically established is an appeal to stick with the status quo. I'm sorry, but companies have always focused on making money. Saying that the way to handle this very specific problem is to focus on making mo…

> It is a continual frustration to me that the male-dominated tech community is so bad with these issues Is it? The implication is that tech is worse than other professions in this regard. But it has never been compared to other industries full of young people. Color me skeptical but I don't believe that a field full of introverted immigrants with language barriers would have a bigger harassment issue than the busine…

Short of the military, and professional sports, it is. The difference is that in tech instead of being met with jeers and gropes, you're met with jeers, gropes, lengthy justifications, apologetics, and organizational inertia.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#412

Post by misnome » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 12:43 AM UTC

webkike wrote: post #216

emodendroket wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think a male boss inviting a female employee over for "drinks" on a Saturday night at his home is nothing more than a "friendly gesture"?

It could be. There's no context here. In this constructed example sure, it's not a friendly gesture. But it is a poor example. Here's the one I'd use: "Hey employee #333 want to sex" See? No context necessary

I agree that there isn't enough context. The example doesn't even specify that it's being sent to a female employee (that's an assumption everyone is making) and I can imagine plenty of scenarios - with context - where it wouldn't necessarily be inappropriate.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#413

Post by deathanatos » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 12:46 AM UTC

greenhatman wrote: post #406

simplyluke wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except all of this fallout is because Uber HR determined employee x with a harassment issue is valuable enough to making money that the potential to lose employees y and z is an acceptable risk. Ethics do not logically fall into place magically because the ultimate goal is making money. It's easy to say "ignore those factors in favor of making money" but the reality of the world isn't that simple. Uber didn't tolerat…

As long as the demand for engineers stay higher than supply, everything should fall magically into place, actually, according to economic theory. Developer turnover is very costly. What I got from these womens' answers is that their motivations are pretty much exactly the same as men's. Maybe with the exception of serial harassment cases.

> everything should fall magically into place

I'm not so certain. I agree, it should. But engineers don't like to talk about their salary; I have no idea what my peers earn, and it isn't easy to find out. Researching data such as discussion on HN, Glassdoor, BLS data, surveys from companies that are more open, etc. yield absolutely ludicrous ranges; I might ought to (depending on who and how you ask) be earning anywhere from 60k to 250k+ as an engineer; that includes throwing out some high & low figures. The situation is made worse by the huge disparities in cost of living between various geographies, making it hard to translate salaries in one area into anything sensible in the next. (You're lucky to get a breakdown to one of a geographical area, or actual line of work, but not both. I want to know what a backend vs. mobile vs. PM makes in Boston vs. NYC vs. SF; and ideally, along even more dimensions. Alas, it seems that blog-studies never release the data.)

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#414

Post by FT_intern » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 12:48 AM UTC

cthalupa wrote: post #407

anothercomment wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not "obviously" something wrong. Would you say there is obviously something wrong with the plumbing industry that keeps women away? Or is it just that the smell of shit is too unpleasant? Likewise, some aspects of tech could simply be unpleasant to women, and there are reasons why men are more likely to put up with unpleasant work (like the need to feed a family). I have personally experienced a lot of unple…

Women are just as interested in STEM fields until about the middle school/high school level. What changes around that age? All sorts of external peer pressures. I work with a lot of women. They're not anything near a majority, but the org I'm in is big enough that there are plenty to speak with. They almost universally have many bad experiences and stories to tell that are specifically due to their gender. By no mean…

> What changes around that age?

For tech, males become more introverted.

At that age, introverted boys stay at home, play video games, post on bulletin boards (back in the old days), program, read, etc.

That is how many boys get into tech. They played video games, became immersed in internet forums and tech culture and trolled the internets.

Why do teen boys spend less time socializing and more time on the internet and video games?

That is the main question we could attempt to answer to find the root cause.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#415

Post by adrienne » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:01 AM UTC

jknoepfler wrote: post #313

shawn-furyan wrote: post #278

It is a continual frustration to me that the male-dominated tech community is so bad with these issues. Predictably, the top comment on this post that tries to move forward on a very real problem that has been empirically established is an appeal to stick with the status quo. I'm sorry, but companies have always focused on making money. Saying that the way to handle this very specific problem is to focus on making mo…

I share your frustration, but I've found the landscape to be more complex than most people are willing to give it credit for. For example, my partner and I disagree on the value of things like "Girls who Code" or "Women in Computer Science" groups. I (male) tend to think "can't hurt seems like a decent idea, I'm sure there are unique challenges faced by people with two X-chromosomes in computer science that I'm not a…

Women are absolutely capable of internalizing and perpetuating misogyny (which is what you're describing your wife doing here). And also, not all women have vaginas, and not all people who have vaginas are women.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#416

Post by shawn-furyan » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:04 AM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #400

shawn-furyan wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to speak for my wife, but she has been actively involved in Girls Who Code, and seems to have thought that it was worthwhile. As I understand it, it's more about letting girls know that programming is an option, rather than being about segregating female engineers. I think this is necessary because I have personally seen the assumption that men are engineers and women are support people limit the careers…

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "bullshit mythmaking"? I'm not familiar with that turn of phrase.

It was my own off the cuff phrase. It's hard to relay the subtleties that I am trying to get across. I think that a lot of career programmers overstate the difficulty of their jobs, and how impossible it would be for people who don't closely hew to the archetype of the genius iconoclast hacker to contribute at all, even when they've demonstrated relevant aptitude and competence. These biases strike me as damaging to the motivations of people who don't look like, or particularly relate to anyone held up as a paragon of that archetype. Also, looking like Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg, or even Woz, doesn't actually strike me as being relevant to someone's potential as a programmer. That's why I call it bullshit. Because the tech industry selects for people who outwardly present as stereotypical hackers without even doing much to verify ability in many cases, while constantly relitigating the bona fides of people who don't outwardly present those superficial qualities.

Put another way, why have I seen many very good female programmers trapped in lower paying positions like QA and X-Analyst (but doing legit programming as their job) when there are men who are shitty programmers making 50% more and in a social position that gives them license to condescend to these women?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#417

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:09 AM UTC

gurkendoktor wrote: post #165

logicallee wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, due to the outrageous skew in gender, I think you have to read these things more deeply. There are offices with 18 or 20 men and 0 women or 1 woman. That doesn't happen statistically - certainly not with the incentives of exceedingly high salaries and a field that is open to all (by means of a computer science undergraduate program.) Look at something that is much harder than becoming a software engineer: becom…

> There are offices with 18 or 20 men and 0 women or 1 woman. That doesn't happen statistically - certainly not with the incentives of exceedingly high salaries [...] It's entirely possible that I am extrapolating from my own naivety, but do young men really get into software development for the money? I don't think any of my friends were thinking about our future salaries when we started programming after school. It…

I think a fair number of people major in computer science and get programming jobs because it's a stable job, yes.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#418

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:09 AM UTC

angry-hacker wrote: post #398

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think, every so often, "Don't they realize that I'd do this even if they didn't pay me?" But then I got married, had children, the kids grew up and needed braces and cars and college. I really need work that pays well right now, whether or not I like the work.

I know very well how tough it is... but for a lot of guys, things like that are not a priority. For different reasons... I personally believe this is what makes the difference between women and men. Women tend to appreciate real things like family, kids, healthy lifestyle more than the geeks who are fine with staring a screen all day long.

It sounds more like the difference between 20-year-olds and older people with responsibilities other than themselves and work.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#419

Post by adrienne » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:10 AM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #405

amyjess wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say that the reason why sexual harassment is such a problem at SV unicorns is because of the SV startup culture, not despite it. SV encourages people to move fast, be aggressive, don't be afraid to break things, ignore regulations, disrupt all the things, etc. There are substantial similarities to the way a VC-funded startup operates and the way a pick-up artist operates. You'll notice that Susan Fowler's blog po…

Surely part of it has to be how many people in these companies are fresh out of college.

You might be shocked at the amount of misogyny men in their 30s and 40s think is acceptable. (Also, contra 'amyjess - some of the conservative fields, in particular finance and law, are also hideously sexist & contain a ton of harassment.)

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#420

Post by emodendroket » Tue, Mar 28, 2017, 1:11 AM UTC

yourapostasy wrote: post #145

logicallee wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, due to the outrageous skew in gender, I think you have to read these things more deeply. There are offices with 18 or 20 men and 0 women or 1 woman. That doesn't happen statistically - certainly not with the incentives of exceedingly high salaries and a field that is open to all (by means of a computer science undergraduate program.) Look at something that is much harder than becoming a software engineer: becom…

Does software engineering have a gender problem, or a social validation problem? It is no secret that women in nations where software engineering is likely to be a significant source of employment are far more socially attuned than men are; whether this is by nurture or nature is grist for another mill at another time. It is also no secret that software engineers rank lower on social validation than doctors. Empirica…

It's my observation that there are a lot more women in roles like project manager or scrum master or business analyst than software engineer.