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Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm male, barely progressive, of below average couth, and probably seem like a dinosaur to younger colleagues when it comes to gender issues, but I think your item #1 is without question the most endlessly frustrating and pointless source of tedium in the software business and its only gotten worse during the last 20 years. I've found myself finding more common ground with young women on my teams than with the young…

Code reviews may have grown in importance due to scaled back formal design documents and formal qa staff and processes. > young women generally respond to it in a way that I like (e.g. they make a value judgement about what advice was worth taking and what wasn't and do it). In my only 10+ years experience, I noticed women seem more defensive about their code being reviewed and I have to write long formal arguments i…

>I usually get a note "sounds good, will do."

This is me, but not at first. I think it took me a while to realize most arguments aren't worth it and not rocking the boat has a lot of social value, especially from a "get on with my day and let bygones be bygones" perspective. I suck up some really questionable criticisms from my boss on the regular. Its not a big deal. I find women in the workplace seem to learn this lesson much later than their male peers. I think female social culture is often argument and verbal heavy and that translates poorly into the workplace. I feel this is the downside of being more socially aware earlier on than boys. Girls seem to become very sensitive to perceived slights and that hyper-sensitivity doesn't translate well into the workplace.

I work with women in their 40s who will argue about the something trivial thing until they're blue in the face. I almost never see a man act like this, especially past age 30 or so. I think older men are just taught to take arguments and conflict more seriously and take on a certain level of stoicism, if not a strong level of emotional repression, at work. In the world of men a conflict could turn into violence quickly while women on women violence is much more rare and with much less serious consequences. A 110lbs girl isn't going to be able to murder me but a 200lbs guy could easily or accidentally do so. I think subconscious knowledge of that permeates our work life and affects how we develop. By the time we enter the workplace we've internalized certain attitudes, if your attitude is 'conflict is everywhere and needs to be constantly addressed' then you'll have a hard time at work, regardless of gender.

I remember being the only man in a group of girls at my first professional job and the gossiping and negativity was extremely high with them, now I can't ever imagine socializing like that at work. It just seems crazy and a guaranteed way to ruin your day and hate your coworkers and bosses. Some of it was absolutely justified but dwelling on it was counter-productive (no one went to HR or went to resolve things, they just seethed endlessly).

Nowadays, I've picked up the 'male stoicism' that always bewildered me about older guys when I was first starting to work a 'real job.' Now it makes perfect sense to me as it limits conflict, drama, and seething resentment. Meanwhile many of my female peers never made this advancement so we have to make special exemptions and treat them with kid gloves if they're even on the receiving end of anything they'll perceive as a slight. Its exhausting, frankly, and I wonder why women, with their ultra-refined social skills, don't see that this kind of behavior is ultimately self-defeating.

That said, the above is a generalization, but its definitely an 80/20 kind of things. 80% of the women I've worked with are like this, with 20% being the exception.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was a comment, not an employee handbook. Boss: "Hey, my partner​ and I would love it if you'd like to join us for drinks at my place on Saturday night." Employee (replies & CC's boss's boss): "I'm here to work, and this is making me extremely​ uncomfortable." ^^^ strive for that.

All work and no play makes Jill and Jack dull.

Office dating is dicey but, I think, workable, but the issues with a superior asking a subordinate out on a date are so obvious that I don't see how you can think it's OK.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was a comment, not an employee handbook. Boss: "Hey, my partner​ and I would love it if you'd like to join us for drinks at my place on Saturday night." Employee (replies & CC's boss's boss): "I'm here to work, and this is making me extremely​ uncomfortable." ^^^ strive for that.

CC's boss's boss? A bit passive-aggressive for a friendly gesture isn't it?

Do you think a male boss inviting a female employee over for "drinks" on a Saturday night at his home is nothing more than a "friendly gesture"?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#184

Get everyone focused on thinking about the team's mission, role, and what it takes to get the job done. Drill that into everyone's head and stick to it. Let everything else go. A mentor once told me that business fundamentally revolves around making money, saving money, saving time, and making customers happier. I like thinking about work that way, as it has nothing to do with religion, sex, gender, age, height, phas…

I think this thinking is discouraging. Bot to men but even more to women and it might be the reason why there are so few women in STEM fields. I think generally work places should be much more well rounded. We spend a considerable amount of time there, so why not allow it to be a place where we expand our lives instead of a place where we only "make money, save money, save time, and make customers happier"?

> might be the reason why there are so few women in STEM fields

It might be, as is repeatedly suggested; but it probably isn't. If it was, we'd see more women study STEM in the first place.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment was a comment, not an employee handbook. Boss: "Hey, my partner​ and I would love it if you'd like to join us for drinks at my place on Saturday night." Employee (replies & CC's boss's boss): "I'm here to work, and this is making me extremely​ uncomfortable." ^^^ strive for that.

CC's boss's boss? A bit passive-aggressive for a friendly gesture isn't it?

That reads to me more like a pass. If a boss made a pass at me, you better believe I'd be looping in someone higher up on that, too, because that whole territory is extremely fraught no matter the response.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this thinking is discouraging. Bot to men but even more to women and it might be the reason why there are so few women in STEM fields. I think generally work places should be much more well rounded. We spend a considerable amount of time there, so why not allow it to be a place where we expand our lives instead of a place where we only "make money, save money, save time, and make customers happier"?

Careful. Plenty of STEM fields have much better gender parity than tech. Tech is singularly bad among the STEM fields; only physics is competitively bad. Mathematics, molecular biology, stat --- all have strong female participation. Worth noting: all these other STEM fields are also heavily dependent on software and computer technology, and women do fine in them.

Isn't 'tech' a broader term than those other subjects though?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#187

How can Hospitals help retain Male Nurses? (male nurses: ~8%) How can Schools help retain Male Teachers? (male teachers: ~20%) How can we help Males dying on the job? (male on the job deaths: ~90%+)

Naturally, these questions do get asked in each industry. Nursing [1-3]; K-5 teaching [4-6]. There are entire federal and state agencies with copious regulation dedicated to workplace safety. As a society, we spend millions upon millions each year making inherently dangerous workplaces (mostly occupied by men, as you note) a bit less dangerous.

And I don't even know anything about those cultures; I'm literally "just fucking googling it". A mere investment of a few minutes would've easily dispossessed you of the misapprehension that men aren't explicitly recruited and retained in female-dominant fields.

Hopefully it's blatantly obvious why we're discussing gender disparities in software engineering on HN -- a message board primarily frequented by people in the software startup industry -- instead of gender disparities in these other professions.

[1] http://minoritynurse.com/men-in-nursing/

[2] https://www.corexcel.com/courses/men-nursing-handout.pdf

[3] http://www.asrn.org/journal-nursing/374-men-in-nursing.html

[4] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.659...

[5] http://espace.library.uq.edu.au/view/UQ:73946

[6] http://www.menteach.org/

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#188
Perhaps some of these "managers" should study Crew Resource Management [0] (CRM) for some lessons that were "paid for in blood". For Airline operations, crew includes cabin crew.

There was a notorious case, British Midlands Flight 92 [1], where the pilots shut down the wrong engine. At least one flight attendant (& several passengers) noticed the left engine was producing flames and sparks. The Captain said he shut down the right engine, which was working properly. The aircraft crashed, causing 47 fatalities, 74 serious injuries and 5 minor injuries.

Compare that to Qantas Flight 32 [2], with 5 pilots in the cockpit, and 24 cabin crew, along with maintenance, ATC and rescue crew on the ground, landed a seriously damaged A380 without injury or further damage.

Capt. Richard De Crispigny was later quoted: "We sucked the brains from all pilots in cockpit to make one massive brain and we used that intelligence to resolve problems on the fly because they were unexpected events, unthinkable events". This is CRM at its finest.

Another successful application of CRM was in Aloha Flight 243 [3]. After loosing a section of the roof, Captain Robert Schornstheimer & First Officer (& later Captain) Mini Tomkins landed the damaged 737 with all passengers surviving. One flight attendant, CB Lansing, was blown out of the aircraft.

Effective CRM (management) is what allowed QF32 and Aloha 243 to land safely.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegworth_air_disaster

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the mentality that leads to drama explosions like at Uber. They were all focused on making money and building a big company. Because of this, they ignored the "little things" like building a HR department that could support women when they were put in bad situations.

I think a part of "don't tolerate a culture that gets in the way of making that [making money] happen" is not tolerating sexism, juvenile behaviour, harassment, or bullying in the workplace. All of those factors make some of your employees less productive.

You would think so, but people are very often willing to damage their own financial self-interest in favor of prejudices, especially when the former is long-term and the latter short-term.
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