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The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

schneier.com

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Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#91

Post by jlg23 »

bm1362 wrote: post #86

I just transited through Qatar yesterday, bound for JFK, and had my electronics forced into the cargo hold. They made us check a bag 3 separate times: for a hair straightener, a Nintendo Switch and a Kindle. Following a mind-numbing 25 hours; it turns out that our bags then got lost and we're now awaiting some update from the airline.

Ouch. Your story has already been the backing of my policy even before I knew it: Never ever fly without my most valuable things in carry-on luggage (and twice I refused to board the plane because of this - both times they relented because getting my checking in luggage out of the plane (required by safety regulations) would have been too much).

Good luck with your lost luggage :(

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#92

Post by roninb »

logicallee wrote: post #85
pavel_lishin wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will give your argument a name: "argument from helplessness." We can't solve it, so we should just accept that it will open happen. He didn't say that. He said that dirty feet are always a problem, and people will always track dirt into the house, and the solution to that is not to selectively ban muslims from wearing their shoes into your house, or banning Nike sneakers, or people who have recently walked throug…

The reason I asked them to follow my train of thought is that I feared I wasn't expressing it clearly enough, which given you response and others', seems to be the case. Basically, if you want to argue against a ban on Nike shoes, one of the worst arguments you can make is what you just said: that people will always track dirt into the house no matter what you do. (It's a bad argument that won't convince anyone.) The…

Just as a heads up, this board is often extremely logical. So using the argument "You won't win people over" around here, being filled with people who care much more about being technically (read: the best kind of) correct, is probably going to not get you very far (if anywhere, at all).

That said, I think you're missing the point most others are making, which is that your argument is missing the point others are trying to make, "where there's a will, there's a way" or perhaps more aptly, "prohibition doesn't work" as we've seen countless times through history.

edit: I also think at the heart of what everyone else is getting at is perhaps anger at the fact that while they feel their argument is perfectly logical ("prohibition doesn't work"), they know, like you, that it's not very convincing (again, look to history, we've had a 4 decade war on drugs after several failed prohibitions throughout our country's history that did all of nothing for stopping revenue streams and usage of prohibited substances).

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#93

Post by alasdair_ »

CoolGuySteve wrote: post #2

According to this Guardian article, the ban was caused by a plan to hide a bomb in an iPad: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/26/plot-explosive... I always thought it was weird that you could keep an iPad packed in your carry on but a laptop had to be scanned separately even if it was a similar size to an iPad.

If your laptop is thin enough, you can keep it in your carry-on.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#94

Post by Raphmedia »

alasdair_ wrote: post #93
CoolGuySteve wrote: post #2

According to this Guardian article, the ban was caused by a plan to hide a bomb in an iPad: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/26/plot-explosive... I always thought it was weird that you could keep an iPad packed in your carry on but a laptop had to be scanned separately even if it was a similar size to an iPad.

If your laptop is thin enough, you can keep it in your carry-on.

Gives a new meaning to the Macbook Air. Thin enough you can carry it on a plane.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#95

Post by sandworm101 »

dageshi wrote: post #82
croon wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or not. I've never had them check my laptop once (other than the scans) in any airport I've been through, and that's quite a few. (Not that I haven't seen it done though) This isn't about an assessment on airport capabilities in laptop security vetting.

My personal experience has been that Dubai (which I believe is one on the list?) has some of the highest security I've seen. Everytime I go through it as a passenger connecting on another flight (not leaving the airport) I've been though security (shoes off x-rays e.t.c.) after leaving the plane and getting into the terminal proper. In addition there were spot checks in the waiting lounge before actually bording my o…

The Dubai people have always been great to me. They are intrusive but they are polite. They don't make you feel like a criminal or that you have done anything wrong. Being spot-checked in Dubai isn't anything as embarrassing as being surrounded by TSA agents angry because you forgot a thumbdrive in your coat pocket. In Dubai I feel like a customer purchasing a product. At US airports I feel like a peon asking permission to borrow bossman's car.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#96

Post by sukilot »

phonon wrote: post #71
junto wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently he had absolutely no idea, but it completely freaked him out.

From my experience at Ben Gurion airport...security there has different stages. When you first walk in to the airport, even before you check in and get your ticket, some friendly attractive person will start chatting with you and ask about your trip. They will not identify themselves (or be dressed) as security. Your friend might very well have mentioned something to that person. Later, when the more formal security…

That's bizarre -- if I met someone like that I'd assume they were a criminal trying to rob me.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#97

Post by sandworm101 »

rajathagasthya wrote: post #89
sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Unlike all the other restrictions on material allowed in-flight recently, this ban only applies to specific airports/countries. One must ask why shoebomber or liquid explosive plots resulted in universal bans while this one is country-specific. Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. If ipads are a threat, ban the…

> Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. This was designed to put gulf carriers at a disadvantage because American airliners can't quite match their quality of service. They have been crying about gulf carriers getting huge subsidies from their governments without doing a single thing to improve their own service…

Apples and oranges. Frankly, on the short-haul flights of US airlines I don't want the type of service offered internationals leaving Dubai. I don't want in-flight hot towels or fancy entertainment systems when I am only in the chair for a couple hours. I want polite airport staff at well-designed and run airports. I want flights that leave on time and predictable security lines so that I need not arrive hours early. US airports are horrible but that is out of the airline's hands.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#98

Post by sukilot »

beat wrote: post #59
golemotron wrote: post #38

In the news recently we've seen that illegal border crossings from Mexico have gone down substantially just because the administration has signaled that there will be more deportations. This laptop ban could have the same effect. Increase the barriers for visitation from some countries and people think twice. If this is what the administration is doing, it's very Machiavellian.

Illegal crossings from Mexico had been going down for years prior to the current administration. And I imagine the numbers are seasonal, tied to harvesting work that probably gets a little slow in February. Not that I exactly trust the current administration to tell the truth on the subject in the first place.

Border apprehensions are way down, unseasonably. You can critique the metrics if you have reason to, but 'golemotron is correct as far as official metrics go.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/08/politics/border-crossings-huge...

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#99

Post by ptaipale »

rajathagasthya wrote: post #89
sandworm101 wrote: post #5

Unlike all the other restrictions on material allowed in-flight recently, this ban only applies to specific airports/countries. One must ask why shoebomber or liquid explosive plots resulted in universal bans while this one is country-specific. Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. If ipads are a threat, ban the…

> Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. This was designed to put gulf carriers at a disadvantage because American airliners can't quite match their quality of service. They have been crying about gulf carriers getting huge subsidies from their governments without doing a single thing to improve their own service…

"This was designed to put gulf carriers at a disadvantage because American airliners can't quite match their quality of service."

If you bother to read the comments on Schneier's blog, you'll notice andy's comment:

The ban impacts ten airports and all carriers flying out of those with direct flights to the US and UK. There are no direct flights from those airports on US carriers. So to say that the rule doesn't apply to US carriers is not wholly true, it doesn't apply because they don't fly those routes.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#100

Post by rajathagasthya »

sandworm101 wrote: post #97
rajathagasthya wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. This was designed to put gulf carriers at a disadvantage because American airliners can't quite match their quality of service. They have been crying about gulf carriers getting huge subsidies from their governments without doing a single thing to improve their own service…

Apples and oranges. Frankly, on the short-haul flights of US airlines I don't want the type of service offered internationals leaving Dubai. I don't want in-flight hot towels or fancy entertainment systems when I am only in the chair for a couple hours. I want polite airport staff at well-designed and run airports. I want flights that leave on time and predictable security lines so that I need not arrive hours early.…

Of course, I wasn't comparing US domestic service with the international ones offered by the gulf carriers. I know that's apples and oranges. The international service from US carriers is just as bad too. Just compare the flying experience from HKG to SFO on United vs Cathay Pacific. Cathay is better by a country mile.
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