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The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

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Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Security at US airports is hit-and-miss. Sometimes they check something and sometimes they dont. Rules appear to change daily and every checkpoint seems to interpret them slightly differently.

carry a little dog in a crate or weer your insulin pump, well you are getting an extra look. security is one thing but the level of ignorance at times is astounding.

Anecdotally, a family member that regularly travels with their small dog experiences much less scrutiny.

Most times they're asked to hold the dog in it's crate and walk through the basic metal detector instead of a full-body scanner. In the 15 or so trips they have gone on in the last six months, they've never once been stopped for enhanced screening.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#82
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or those airports have poor security or are at risk of penetration by bad actors.

Or not. I've never had them check my laptop once (other than the scans) in any airport I've been through, and that's quite a few. (Not that I haven't seen it done though) This isn't about an assessment on airport capabilities in laptop security vetting.

My personal experience has been that Dubai (which I believe is one on the list?) has some of the highest security I've seen. Everytime I go through it as a passenger connecting on another flight (not leaving the airport) I've been though security (shoes off x-rays e.t.c.) after leaving the plane and getting into the terminal proper. In addition there were spot checks in the waiting lounge before actually bording my onwards flight (on one trip, not all) where my belt was swabbed (presumably for explosives?) and I was asked to turn on my laptop to prove it worked. Never had that happen anywhere else.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#83
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This (and the whole "airplane mode" issue) could easily be solved by a few things. 1. Adding a faraday cage around the passenger sections of the plane would stop wireless connections from passengers to the panes main systems. 2. Completely separate the passenger systems from the plane systems - not unlike separating a monolithic application into a few smaller applications.

Adding a faraday cage would cost money and weight.

you are cordially invited to join us at irc.buttes.org. Once you enter our chat lobby, an attendant will assist you.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I am not defending the policy. I would like to address the specific argument you've used to attack it. (I don't agree with the laptop ban, and I want strong arguments being made against it, not weak arguments.) --- >At some point we are going to have to realise that terrorists are always going to want to target aircraft and just live with it. I would like you to please pay attention for a moment (try to follow…

> I will give your argument a name: "argument from helplessness." We can't solve it, so we should just accept that it will open happen. He didn't say that. He said that dirty feet are always a problem, and people will always track dirt into the house, and the solution to that is not to selectively ban muslims from wearing their shoes into your house, or banning Nike sneakers, or people who have recently walked throug…

The reason I asked them to follow my train of thought is that I feared I wasn't expressing it clearly enough, which given you response and others', seems to be the case.

Basically, if you want to argue against a ban on Nike shoes, one of the worst arguments you can make is what you just said: that people will always track dirt into the house no matter what you do. (It's a bad argument that won't convince anyone.)

The reason that's a poor argument is that it's simply not true. There actually really are ways to keep people tracking dirt into the house - so if you want to argue against banning nikes by citing a false fact (the false fact that it's inevitable that dirt will be tracked in), you've weakened your argument.

Let's take an example: suppose someone wanted to ban shoelaces, because it's possible to tie up a pilot with them. This is a super easy ban to argue against! It's a terrible ban! But the worst argument you can make is "People will always tie up the pilot and copilot, and banning shoelaces won't stop this." Terrible argument that doesn't achieve the result: convincing someone that the ban is stupid. (The argument is terrible because it's not true. For example, locking the cabin door might easily prevent someone from tying up the captain and copilot: therefore it is simply false to say that people will always tie up the pilot and copilot.)

If you don't think it's a poor, ineffective, argument that won't convince anyone, then go do a field report: go find someone that agrees with the policy (I don't), and convince them using this weak argument that doesn't work. Go ahead! The argument is a bad one that doesn't work, won't convince anyone, and I have no idea why you're defending it. In essence, it's a logical fallacy, like arguing that -2 1 which is false.

I've used your own example with the Nike sneakers, so I hope you'll try to at least see my point of view. To make it explicit: some fitness centers (gyms) ban outside shoes. If they were to institute a policy that you can't enter the changing room if you're wearing Nikes, only formal dress shoes, then it is a weak and ineffective way to argue against this policy to write "But people will wear their outside shoes no matter what you do". Because this is false. (For example, having to show your gym shoes upon entry might be sufficient to keep anyone from working out in their outdoor shoes.)

I've worked with your example and I hope you can see the distinction I am making. I'm trying to help refine arguments to something that works. I hate this stupid ban as much as everyone else here and want it argued against effectively. Thanks.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#86
I just transited through Qatar yesterday, bound for JFK, and had my electronics forced into the cargo hold. They made us check a bag 3 separate times: for a hair straightener, a Nintendo Switch and a Kindle.

Following a mind-numbing 25 hours; it turns out that our bags then got lost and we're now awaiting some update from the airline.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#87
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my experience at Ben Gurion airport...security there has different stages. When you first walk in to the airport, even before you check in and get your ticket, some friendly attractive person will start chatting with you and ask about your trip. They will not identify themselves (or be dressed) as security. Your friend might very well have mentioned something to that person. Later, when the more formal security…

>From my experience at Ben Gurion airport...security there has different stages. When you first walk in to the airport, even before you check in and get your ticket, some friendly attractive person will start chatting with you and ask about your trip. They will not identify themselves (or be dressed) as security. Your friend might very well have mentioned something to that person. This is interesting, where can I rea…

On mobile, this article seems to provide some info http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4978149

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#88
post #15

> Why not require passengers to turn their laptops on as they go through security? That would be a more effective security measure than forcing them to check them in their luggage. The reason that security checks aren't going to ask you to turn your laptop, ipad or mobile on, as a standard process, is that it takes too much time.

Also, it is pointless. You can make a perfect replica of a boot screen using a SBC. It could run off of a few coin cells. It would waste everyone's time and not improve security.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#89

Unlike all the other restrictions on material allowed in-flight recently, this ban only applies to specific airports/countries. One must ask why shoebomber or liquid explosive plots resulted in universal bans while this one is country-specific. Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. If ipads are a threat, ban the…

> Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others.

This was designed to put gulf carriers at a disadvantage because American airliners can't quite match their quality of service. They have been crying about gulf carriers getting huge subsidies from their governments without doing a single thing to improve their own service.

Interestingly, UK also banned electronics but excluded major airports like Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Doha.

Re: The TSA's Selective Laptop Ban

#90

Unlike all the other restrictions on material allowed in-flight recently, this ban only applies to specific airports/countries. One must ask why shoebomber or liquid explosive plots resulted in universal bans while this one is country-specific. Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. If ipads are a threat, ban the…

> Imho this is business and politics. This everyday safety mesure is being applied selectively in order to disadvantage some and advantage others. This was designed to put gulf carriers at a disadvantage because American airliners can't quite match their quality of service. They have been crying about gulf carriers getting huge subsidies from their governments without doing a single thing to improve their own service…

It's difficult to say that American carriers have not done a single thing to improve their service. The cost structure of United/American/Delta is very different than long haul international carriers.

http://fortune.com/united-airlines-ceo-oscar-munoz/

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