Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#191

Post by Zikes » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:17 PM UTC

StargazyPi wrote: post #161

Zikes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of any studies, anecdotes aren't data, and I don't know of any particular issues listed in the article that might affect women more than men. The only point I'm trying to make is the obvious one: men and women are different. It's a stupid point, taken at face value, but it's one that seems to get lost every time someone says "but men face those same issues" or "that doesn't seem like a gendered issue to…

Yeah, I agree that on aggregate, men and women have subtly different tendencies. The reason I bring it up though, is that I don't see or experience any particular bias around most of the the issues in the article. Most of the points raised really don't seem like gendered issues.

We need to find a way to figure out which of those differences are important, then. YC seems to be trying via this Ask a Female Engineer series, but if we ask those female engineers which issues are most important to them in regards to what would drive them away and the answers they give aren't satisfactory, then what conclusions can be drawn?

If the issues listed are largely the same issues faced by men, and if the issues have an equivalent impact on male engineer retention, then the answers are incomplete or we're asking the wrong women. Maybe we should ask female former engineers why they left the industry?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#192

Post by songzme » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:17 PM UTC

openasocket wrote: post #52

songzme wrote: post #25

The most important for me is directing social conversations. Most people think that social event is a time for everybody to talk freely about whatever topics, but no. The point of social event is inclusiveness. I see this scenario happening over and over again: Social event starts off friendly. Gradually, the conversation starts turning very technical or very sci-fi, then women turned away and formed their own social…

> the only woman engineer on the team spends the night sipping on her drink quietly wishing she found these topics more interesting or wishing she took more CS classes so she could appreciate the intensity of the conversation Women might have different interests than men, but why do you think they might be stymied by technical conversation? She's an engineer the same as the rest, unless she was hired because of token…

A friend graduated from a bootcamp and she loves coding. But sometimes there are conversations that goes deep into SSDs vs HDDs, bitcoin mining, and other topics unrelated to work that alienated her and she couldn't participate.

I was trying to share what I learned from speaking with a few of my friends. Put yourself in the shoes of a woman who wanted a career change and joined a bootcamp. You learned the necessary skill and took an engineering job on a predominantly male team. Already, you are self conscious about not having a 4 year CS degree. Now they consistently talk about cryptography, hardware, that doesn't seem to relate to your work. As if gender wasn't an issue already, now there is also a technical exclusion.

I am also open to suggestions. Is this an okay scenario?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#193

Post by SEJeff » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:18 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #179

SEJeff wrote: post #177

Let me reframe the question to be my thoughts on how to solve the "problem". Q: How can managers help retain technical engineers A: Treat them fair and pay them what they are worth regardless of how many of which chromosomes they have. When people treat them unfairly or discriminate, stand up for them and show them that you care. Don't penalize them for their genetic ability to make more humans if they so choose to.…

OK, so, in concrete terms, how do you propose people treat their employees equally regardless of sex? Empirically that is not currently what happens, and probably not because someone twirling his mustache said "let's deliberately discriminate against women."

Excellent question! Here is my imperfect idea that is much easier said than done. FWIW, I do work as a software engineer at a very technical firm that I think does a stellar job getting this right.

The biggest thing is the pay gap. Fixing the pay gap does make employees more equal as an employer trades money for an employees time. We have a long way to go to fix the current pay gap in tech at least.

Also I have heard of managers who don't promote women as tech / team leads for fear they'll get pregnant and be on leave for 2-6 months taking care of their child. I literally told a guy at my last job that was not cool when he said that. Even though it might shake things up in the business if a valued employee is off work for a few months that is not the employees fault. Punishing them for what "might or might not happen" in the future is discrimination plain and simple. Discrimination of any form results in a hostile work environment and ultimately a less effective team.

Another common one is someone making unwanted advances or propositions. The only correct response on this from management is swift and firm rejection up to and including firing the unwanted initiator. Look at the recent mess with that female Uber engineer who was harassed so badly she finally gave up and left. She did the absolutely right thing and told the person not cool and then spoke with HR. Because the initiator was a "valued employee" they let it slide, further alienating the now victimized engineer.

I'm a dude in tech who knows what it is like to be treated poorly. We must be the voice for those without one (my wife calls me more of a feminist than she says she is amusingly). To do anything less is to be complicit in this injustice. See the "first they came for..." poem about the Nazis.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#194

Post by songzme » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:18 PM UTC

TrueDuality wrote: post #65

jackhack wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if someone in tech isn't interested in tech and doesn't like conversations about tech and feels excluded when others talk about tech... remind me again why they are in tech?

"Tech" is a very broad and very diverse term. If an employee is design focused and a group is having conversations about the latest Linux kernel API change there is a very good chance the design focused employee won't be able to follow the conversation making them feel left out. Not to discourage design field, they have their own deep technical niches. Not everyone can participate in every thread of a conversation bu…

Thank you for understanding.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#195

Post by scaleout1 » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:18 PM UTC

Few things that comes to my mind

- Have clarity around what time people are expected to arrive/leave. If your company offers free food, dont schedule breakfast super early and dinner super late.

- Dont schedule meetings at 5:00 pm

- Dont change product direction/design based on meetings you had at an after work party

Basically acknowledge that people in general and women in particular have responsibilities outside work. Strive to have work life balance for everyone in your team and not just fresh out of college kids who can afford to sit at house till 9 pm.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#196

Post by decker » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:18 PM UTC

amorphid wrote: post #53

Get everyone focused on thinking about the team's mission, role, and what it takes to get the job done. Drill that into everyone's head and stick to it. Let everything else go. A mentor once told me that business fundamentally revolves around making money, saving money, saving time, and making customers happier. I like thinking about work that way, as it has nothing to do with religion, sex, gender, age, height, phas…

Based on your statement, if the company gets more money by doing all sorts of terrible things to its contractors and employees then that's the right thing to do? There's going to be a ton of local minima in decisions and gray areas in things that you can't accurately value if you reduce it all to money. I think you haven't quite thought through this one completely.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#197

Post by prolly_a_moron » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:20 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #183

Chris2048 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CC's boss's boss? A bit passive-aggressive for a friendly gesture isn't it?

Do you think a male boss inviting a female employee over for "drinks" on a Saturday night at his home is nothing more than a "friendly gesture"?

Way more often than not, yes.

Is your default position to assume there's an agenda behind every invitation?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#198

Post by ashark » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:20 PM UTC

sebcat wrote: post #143

ju-st wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Include paternity leave while you're at it.

If the question is "How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?" - how is paternity leave relevant (unless the father in the relationship works for the same company, I guess)?

If only women have legally mandated paid time off for new kids it'll provide even more reproduction-related disincentive to hire women, which is reason enough for it to be relevant, I'd say.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#199

Post by songzme » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:21 PM UTC

buckbova wrote: post #35

songzme wrote: post #25

The most important for me is directing social conversations. Most people think that social event is a time for everybody to talk freely about whatever topics, but no. The point of social event is inclusiveness. I see this scenario happening over and over again: Social event starts off friendly. Gradually, the conversation starts turning very technical or very sci-fi, then women turned away and formed their own social…

> The most important for me is directing social conversations. You want the manager to micro-manage a happy hour? Sounds like torture.

Yes, but how else would you build empathy and diversity amongst your team? Say you hired a minority who has different interest with the majority on the team. If left unchecked, the minority will always feel excluded (unless they have a strong personality).

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: How Can Managers Help Retain Technical Women?

#200

Post by jackweirdy » Mon, Mar 27, 2017, 6:22 PM UTC

TheGirondin wrote: post #19

jackweirdy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called Ask HN

I wasn't aware HN had a policy of discouraging women from answering questions that are asked in those threads. Seems like a terrible thing that needs to change.

Doesn't need to be a policy to be an emergent property