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Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

nytimes.com

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Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#41

Post by eyko »

linuxkerneldev wrote: post #25
xutopia wrote: post #4

If this fascinates you I recommend you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Natur... . It's a book that talks about violence in history. Ötzi is mentioned and so are a few others.

Steven Pinker's assertions in TBAOON are nice and intellectually attractive but ultimately, difficult to prove or disprove. Naseem Taleb had quite a strong reaction to it. " "Pinker doesn’t have a clear idea of the difference between science and journalism, or the one between rigorous empiricism and anecdotal statements. Science is not about making claims about a sample, but using a sample to make general claims and…

> I think our recent history with Trump, and the increasing friction with China suggest that perhaps the celebration of Pinker's ideas was a bit premature. As Taleb has shown us, a long period of peace doesn't mean that violence is declining or that we can presume that it will never reoccur with the magnitude and intensity we saw during earlier periods.

I highly doubt the increasing friction between the USA and China (and the rest of the world to be honest) is leading to any sort of third world war so I'm confident that a tendency to violence does in fact decrease in certain societies.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#42

Post by eyko »

aedron wrote: post #40
oska wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps he was shot with the arrow on the edge of a cliff and then fell down into/onto the glacier. The killer wasn't able to take his effects because they were irretrievable from the place into which he fell.

This seems by far the most likely reason. Few scenarios would explain why such valuable possessions were left alone. He had obviously been involved in an altercation with some controversy, otherwise he would have seeked treatment rather than go up into the mountains. So his slaying would not have been a secret that needed to be covered up, as this article posits as the reason for his belongings being untouched.

"Inspector Horn reckons Ötzi was in no hurry. At 10,500 feet, he made what appeared to be a camp in a protected gully on the mountain saddle, spreading his belongings around and sitting down to his last meal."

It seems the site where he was found was the actual camp site.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#43

Post by INTPenis »

Alex3917 wrote: post #29
INTPenis wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love all the speculation in this thread so I thought I'd just chime in and say blood from four different people has reportedly been found on his weapons. I believe both axe and arrow heads. This was on HN a few weeks back but I couldn't find that particular article, instead I found one on NatGeo[1] from 2003 saying the same thing. 1. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/1030_031030_...

> blood from four different people has reportedly been found on his weapons. This article doesn't mention it, but he was also carrying a birch polypore, which is a styptic.

That's very cool. 45 years old in good shape in those days must have been a status symbol in itself. 45 years today is pretty wise already but back then I'm sure your average wandering 45 year old knew basic field medical techniques just to stay alive.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#44

Post by INTPenis »

fapjacks wrote: post #35
salesguy222 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the PBS documentary or something like it on youtube, they found a pretty big cerebral bruise on Otzi. It's possible someone hit him with a rock to finish him off, or he hit his head on a rock when he was reacting to being wounded. It seems that he was used to covering long distances and routinely got into fights. Otzi is probably similar to a cave raider from Oblivion :)

I disagree with him being a kind of raider, only because what does everyone do in Oblivion when they murder one of those cave raiders? Loot his corpse of anything valuable. Nobody looted Ötzi's corpse. I found the argument in the article of some kind of domestic incident compelling, especially in light of his valuables not being taken. And I think the "human sacrifice" argument seems like a real stretch.

Exactly, the lack of looting is the biggest detail in this case imo.

To me it speaks of a panicked crime. Combined with the season, spring or summer, I don't believe the crime was panicked due to bad weather conditions.

Maybe it was a very young person taking a revenge shot at him because of something Ötzi had done in the near past.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#45

Post by aedron »

eyko wrote: post #42
aedron wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems by far the most likely reason. Few scenarios would explain why such valuable possessions were left alone. He had obviously been involved in an altercation with some controversy, otherwise he would have seeked treatment rather than go up into the mountains. So his slaying would not have been a secret that needed to be covered up, as this article posits as the reason for his belongings being untouched.

"Inspector Horn reckons Ötzi was in no hurry. At 10,500 feet, he made what appeared to be a camp in a protected gully on the mountain saddle, spreading his belongings around and sitting down to his last meal." It seems the site where he was found was the actual camp site.

How do they determine that, though? All of the artifacts appear to be belongings that he would be carrying with him, as far as I can tell. Perhaps the location is inherently very accessible? But that could have changed over millennia (which might also explain why he turned up after so long).

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#46

Post by Alex3917 »

pvaldes wrote: post #38
Alex3917 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> blood from four different people has reportedly been found on his weapons. This article doesn't mention it, but he was also carrying a birch polypore, which is a styptic.

Is more probable that the polypore would be used as tinder On the other hand, the use of ash wood in the knife is a smart move.

He was also carrying a tinder polypore, so it's unlikely the birch polypore was used for tinder.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#47

Post by eyko »

aedron wrote: post #45
eyko wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Inspector Horn reckons Ötzi was in no hurry. At 10,500 feet, he made what appeared to be a camp in a protected gully on the mountain saddle, spreading his belongings around and sitting down to his last meal." It seems the site where he was found was the actual camp site.

How do they determine that, though? All of the artifacts appear to be belongings that he would be carrying with him, as far as I can tell. Perhaps the location is inherently very accessible? But that could have changed over millennia (which might also explain why he turned up after so long).

Perhaps it's the way his belongings were scattered around - not like they fell from his hands after a fall but like he had put them down and camped.

> Inspector Horn reckons Ötzi was in no hurry. At 10,500 feet, he made what appeared to be a camp in a protected gully on the mountain saddle, spreading his belongings around and sitting down to his last meal.

Of course, it's also possible that his killer was the one who camped there after klling him, went through his belongings, and discarded the ones that were found. Although why would they leave his axe behind? At the very least I would've taken the bronze blade, from the axe.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#48

Post by foldr »

INTPenis wrote: post #43
Alex3917 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> blood from four different people has reportedly been found on his weapons. This article doesn't mention it, but he was also carrying a birch polypore, which is a styptic.

That's very cool. 45 years old in good shape in those days must have been a status symbol in itself. 45 years today is pretty wise already but back then I'm sure your average wandering 45 year old knew basic field medical techniques just to stay alive.

Not necessarily. A lot of people died young, which lowered the average lifespan considerably, but once you got through your childhood and teens, your chances of living to an old age were reasonably high.

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#49

Post by salesguy222 »

fapjacks wrote: post #35
salesguy222 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think in the PBS documentary or something like it on youtube, they found a pretty big cerebral bruise on Otzi. It's possible someone hit him with a rock to finish him off, or he hit his head on a rock when he was reacting to being wounded. It seems that he was used to covering long distances and routinely got into fights. Otzi is probably similar to a cave raider from Oblivion :)

I disagree with him being a kind of raider, only because what does everyone do in Oblivion when they murder one of those cave raiders? Loot his corpse of anything valuable. Nobody looted Ötzi's corpse. I found the argument in the article of some kind of domestic incident compelling, especially in light of his valuables not being taken. And I think the "human sacrifice" argument seems like a real stretch.

I appreciate your perspective, and that of the commenter below as well!

I still think it is possible for Otzi to be a bandit/raider. He did not have a body for agricultural work, and he had clothes designed for surviving harsh (non-domestic climates).

My hypothesis is that he probably pissed off a few too many people and his reputation began spreading from town to town possibly.

He probably stole food and goods at night and then walked away with his haul to use or sell elsewhere.

Eventually, people figured out that they had a bit of a human vulture up in the mountains. When he came down to the village to get some goods and provisions, he was confronted by attackers, wounded, and escaped.

He fled high up into the mountains, stopping to eat and rest from his encounter.

Someone from the village, followed him, sniped him, and did not loot Otzi.

Why? I hypothesize probably because the person viewed Otzi as a nuissance, and viewed himself as more honorable than Otzi.

It honestly sounds like some kind of vigilante justice situation, or even a proto police force. Police aren't supposed to loot their kills (but these days they do, and auction off the items ;] )

Re: Who Killed Ötzi the Iceman? Clues Emerge

#50

Post by linuxkerneldev »

eyko wrote: post #41
linuxkerneldev wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steven Pinker's assertions in TBAOON are nice and intellectually attractive but ultimately, difficult to prove or disprove. Naseem Taleb had quite a strong reaction to it. " "Pinker doesn’t have a clear idea of the difference between science and journalism, or the one between rigorous empiricism and anecdotal statements. Science is not about making claims about a sample, but using a sample to make general claims and…

> I think our recent history with Trump, and the increasing friction with China suggest that perhaps the celebration of Pinker's ideas was a bit premature. As Taleb has shown us, a long period of peace doesn't mean that violence is declining or that we can presume that it will never reoccur with the magnitude and intensity we saw during earlier periods. I highly doubt the increasing friction between the USA and China…

> I'm confident that a tendency to violence does in fact decrease in certain societies.

Could you elaborate on which certain societies you mean? Thanks.

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