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There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

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Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#51

Post by Terr_ »

axhue wrote: post #35

I think I have been feeling the same way the author felt during employment at the company. The scary part is leaving only to find it succeeds after I have left. But the main thing is that in startups we just want a place to belong, a chance to be a part of a bigger thing. With this obsession comes the tendency to do anything to achieve that goal.

> The scary part is leaving only to find it succeeds after I have left.

It could be that an exodus of employees is what triggers actual reform.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#52

Post by donovanm »

mirimir wrote: post #30
donovanm wrote: post #4

All work and no play will eventually burn most people out as it's very unbalanced. At 90 hrs a week there couldn't have been time for much else.

Ah, but what if your work is play for you? And what if family stuff occurs like work ? I worked 90 hour weeks sometimes in grad school. But otherwise, only when I've billed by the hour.

I have yet to see a job that would be entirely play. There is always some amount of boring/tedious stuff that comes with it. I think the people trying to tell me a job is play are trying to sell me something. Family stuff could be work to someone, it's just work you're not paid for.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#53

Post by mirimir »

donovanm wrote: post #52
mirimir wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but what if your work is play for you? And what if family stuff occurs like work ? I worked 90 hour weeks sometimes in grad school. But otherwise, only when I've billed by the hour.

I have yet to see a job that would be entirely play. There is always some amount of boring/tedious stuff that comes with it. I think the people trying to tell me a job is play are trying to sell me something. Family stuff could be work to someone, it's just work you're not paid for.

True. But say you bill at $200 per hour. You can subcontract the boring stuff. You can pay for cleaning and yard work and stuff. But boring family stuff you can't subcontract, like hanging out with boring relatives, or going to the opera. And when that prevents you from having fun at $200 per hour, it's doubly frustrating.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#54

Post by nunez »

I don't think overworking is a bad thing from time to time.

If you're changing to a more lucrative career or trying to make a dent at a company, you'll probably need to do more than what's expected of you. (How else can you demonstrate that you're capable of doing your job AND the job of the role above you?) If you're working somewhere where long hours are practically institutionalized (investment banking, legal, etc), then you've gotta put in the time.

But balance is key. Take days/weeks off every so often. Make sure that the work is 100% aligned with your goals. Make sure that you HAVE goals and are keeping track so you can look back and see progress."

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#55

Post by QuarterReptile »

techjuice wrote: post #10

Have any of you come across recent research papers on this from STEM engineers and medical professionals inside and outside of academia?

Less on overwork generally, and more sleep specifically: the US Navy, and especially the submarine force, has a porblem with not sleeping enough, and​ in the case of submarines, sometimes crashing into things because of it.

Probably as a result of this, the navy's postgraduate school has a large sleep study niche for people getting their master's degrees. I haven't read the theses, but they might be worth a look. Here's the search portal: http://calhoun.nps.edu/handle/10945/17

Searching 'sleep' yields a 106-page list of theses.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#56

Post by mythrwy »

ydt wrote: post #31
jrs235 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is great and awesome. I was the same way. But what unfortunately happens is your output and productivity from this becomes the norm/standard. Everyone above needs to know they can't and shouldn't calculate not expect this amount of output. Consider it a temporary bonus and never rely or make plans assuming it. That's the difficult thing for everyone above to do. They want to appear to be the hero and they don't…

I just started a new gig at a place that enforces a 35-hour work week. I get just as much done as I did working 40+ hours, but I'm way happier and just generally more relaxed. It's really amazing what walking out of the office at 11:30 every Friday will do for your mental health.

In my experience, 30-35 hours a week of "real" programming (not meetings/ water cooler chat etc.) is about what I can do sustainability without getting squirrely.

I've done a whole lot more for periods of course but pay for it later and can't keep pace week after week without it really taking a toll. My mental state and relationships and personal life suffer. I become generally unhappy. Not to mention my hands and wrists. Burnout is the end and I've discovered in sum it's a loss to push more.

If more is expected over time I see it as a company that has no problem eating it's capital and it isn't for me. Other people might be tougher, IDK. But all I can keep is a solid 30-35 hours over the long haul without burning out.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#57

Post by cbanek »

humanrebar wrote: post #45
cbanek wrote: post #33

I agree, overwork is bad. But this part struck me: "Clarity struck me at a management meeting when a colleague asked my opinion on a project. I shrugged lightly and said it didn’t matter to me, my team would be able to support whatever decision that was made. It was a somber, sobering realization: I didn’t care." Now maybe this was one of those internal realizations, which is totally legit. But not having an opinion…

I've had more problems in the other direction, actually: people who weren't that opinionated executing on really bad plans. They could be really terrible plans, even. Like cutting corners here or there, but they just didn't want to make an issue out of it.

Well if someone is executing a bad plan, they either know it's a bad plan, or they don't know it's a bad plan. If they think it's a great plan, it's usually hard to convince them it's not if they aren't willing to listen. But if they have less of an emotional investment, usually I find it easier to convince them of whatever I think needs to be changed.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#58

Post by milesvp »

mirimir wrote: post #53
donovanm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have yet to see a job that would be entirely play. There is always some amount of boring/tedious stuff that comes with it. I think the people trying to tell me a job is play are trying to sell me something. Family stuff could be work to someone, it's just work you're not paid for.

True. But say you bill at $200 per hour. You can subcontract the boring stuff. You can pay for cleaning and yard work and stuff. But boring family stuff you can't subcontract, like hanging out with boring relatives, or going to the opera. And when that prevents you from having fun at $200 per hour, it's doubly frustrating.

If you're billing your full rate after 32+ billable hours, you are ripping off your customers. I don't often accept pull requests from coworkers after that. They tend to be full of subtle bugs that are hard to spot.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#59

Post by mirimir »

milesvp wrote: post #58
mirimir wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But say you bill at $200 per hour. You can subcontract the boring stuff. You can pay for cleaning and yard work and stuff. But boring family stuff you can't subcontract, like hanging out with boring relatives, or going to the opera. And when that prevents you from having fun at $200 per hour, it's doubly frustrating.

If you're billing your full rate after 32+ billable hours, you are ripping off your customers. I don't often accept pull requests from coworkers after that. They tend to be full of subtle bugs that are hard to spot.

True. But if a client is pushing me with rush work caused by their own poor planning, it's not my problem. Indeed, it's not unheard-of to bill extra for rush work.
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