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There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

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Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#21

Post by robryan »

frozenport wrote: post #16
techjuice wrote: post #10

Have any of you come across recent research papers on this from STEM engineers and medical professionals inside and outside of academia?

Yes. In the case of MDs there is contradictory evidence. On one hand, a popular form of hazing is to make junior members work insane sleepless hours (like 24 hours straight!). On the other hand, the transfer of care from one doctor to another is a common source of errors. PhD is a whole different story because cut-throat competition, the 996 work habits, and oppressive Confucius culture are hallmarks of the student's…

Surely the answer would be to improve the transfer of care process. Transfer is probably even worse after someone has worked 24 hours.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#22

Post by lr4444lr »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #7

In the menagerie of death marches I've been a party to throughout my ~20yr career. Every single one of them was predicated on a team that was, in aggregate, a low-performing team, so we were all having to work so much to make up for the lack of ability and/or preparedness of others, and those others were having to work so much to compensate for not being particularly​ good at their jobs, and taking on way more respon…

That was a great comment. It would really help morale, I think, if "we need to crunch hard for x days/weeks" from someone in management also came with "I accept responsibility for this situation. I will make it up to all of you working under me in some concrete way in your compensation or time off, and will also show you the tangible steps I will take subsequently so that I don't put you in this situation again."

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#23

Post by dasil003 »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #7

In the menagerie of death marches I've been a party to throughout my ~20yr career. Every single one of them was predicated on a team that was, in aggregate, a low-performing team, so we were all having to work so much to make up for the lack of ability and/or preparedness of others, and those others were having to work so much to compensate for not being particularly​ good at their jobs, and taking on way more respon…

I mostly agree with you, but I think there are two orthogonal angles worth considering.

First of all, some startups foster a cult-like, work-together-play-together environment where the pressure to overwork is subtly amped up as well since everyone spends all their time together. This kind of company is arguably exploiting young people's natural disposition and projected fantasies of success, although if they pay well and give above average equity then it could be more of a lifestyle choice than outright exploitation. It's also worth acknowledging that this kind of devotion can be a strong motivator that leads to high productivity. It's not necessarily the case that people have to work more because of mismanagement.

The second angle is that business success has very little correlation to the efficiency of management. Fundamentally if you have a good business then you will make more money for less work than if you have a bad one. Having obsessed workaholic employees is a decent way to improve your chances, but it's no guarantee. Sometimes in a startup you have to do a death march to survive long enough to test a reasonable hypothesis, but if it becomes so ingrained in the culture that you're still doing it at a later stage, then that's a company I won't touch with a ten foot pole.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#24

Post by mjevans »

robryan wrote: post #21
frozenport wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. In the case of MDs there is contradictory evidence. On one hand, a popular form of hazing is to make junior members work insane sleepless hours (like 24 hours straight!). On the other hand, the transfer of care from one doctor to another is a common source of errors. PhD is a whole different story because cut-throat competition, the 996 work habits, and oppressive Confucius culture are hallmarks of the student's…

Surely the answer would be to improve the transfer of care process. Transfer is probably even worse after someone has worked 24 hours.

Maybe a Remote First (document /everything/ proactively as if someone else might have to pick things up the very next moment) work style would improve that situation.

There were discussions about that in the past, but I don't recall any of them having made the connection that it being brought back up in this context provided me...

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#27

Post by jrs235 »

ams6110 wrote: post #12
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #7

In the menagerie of death marches I've been a party to throughout my ~20yr career. Every single one of them was predicated on a team that was, in aggregate, a low-performing team, so we were all having to work so much to make up for the lack of ability and/or preparedness of others, and those others were having to work so much to compensate for not being particularly​ good at their jobs, and taking on way more respon…

When I was younger I used to work a lot of extra hours because I enjoyed the work. Now not so much, but still get enthused about things from time to time and find myself still at work at 8:00pm not even aware of what time it is.

Which is great and awesome. I was the same way. But what unfortunately happens is your output and productivity from this becomes the norm/standard. Everyone above needs to know they can't and shouldn't calculate not expect this amount of output. Consider it a temporary bonus and never rely or make plans assuming it. That's the difficult thing for everyone above to do. They want to appear to be the hero and they don't want to say no. As a manager or leader, make sure your folks never put in more than 45 hours a week for planned out work. 40 or 35 would be better. Once they got 40 hours for the week or 80 for the two week pay period have them learn a new skill, train them on something else, or tell them to stay home.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#28

Post by jrs235 »

lr4444lr wrote: post #22
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #7

In the menagerie of death marches I've been a party to throughout my ~20yr career. Every single one of them was predicated on a team that was, in aggregate, a low-performing team, so we were all having to work so much to make up for the lack of ability and/or preparedness of others, and those others were having to work so much to compensate for not being particularly​ good at their jobs, and taking on way more respon…

That was a great comment. It would really help morale, I think, if "we need to crunch hard for x days/weeks" from someone in management also came with "I accept responsibility for this situation. I will make it up to all of you working under me in some concrete way in your compensation or time off, and will also show you the tangible steps I will take subsequently so that I don't put you in this situation again."

Time off. Compensation will lead to a belief we can keep up this pace with this team for $xxxxx. It's not sustainable and it's a lie. Don't allow a lie to perpetuate. Your folks will burnout.

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#29

Post by jrs235 »

im_down_w_otp wrote: post #15
ams6110 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was younger I used to work a lot of extra hours because I enjoyed the work. Now not so much, but still get enthused about things from time to time and find myself still at work at 8:00pm not even aware of what time it is.

Likewise. I still stay up late most nights after my wife and child go to bed so that I can have 2-3 hours of uninterrupted time to work on little projects that are interesting to me or help expand my skill set. But that kind of work is elective, and is essentially a hybrid of hobby and duty, so I'm not convinced it fits the typical mold of a path to inevitable burnout.

That's fulfilling work to you. I coined a phrase just last night: "If it's not fulfilling, it's draining."

Re: There’s no glory in overworking, it’s just imminent burnout

#30

Post by mirimir »

donovanm wrote: post #4

All work and no play will eventually burn most people out as it's very unbalanced. At 90 hrs a week there couldn't have been time for much else.

Ah, but what if your work is play for you?

And what if family stuff occurs like work?

I worked 90 hour weeks sometimes in grad school. But otherwise, only when I've billed by the hour.

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