Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are assuming that the average customer knows that the company is subsidizing the printer to sell the ink. . . I don't think that is true. I think the average person sees a great deal on a printer and is genuinely surprised when they find it drinks ink like it's Octoberfest.
At the time of purchase you can find these things out by researching the price of the replacement ink cartridge and its page rating. (Page rating is soft/fudgeable but should at least be a reasonable way to ballpark the lifespan of the cartridge.) I would consider this cursory research when evaluating a purchase that takes an ongoing supply of consumables. To me it sort of seems like you're saying "Wow this dryer use…
The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
111–120 of 145 posts
Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#112Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#113It's interesting to note Lexmark tried to (ab)use other kinds of so-called "intelectual property" laws earlier: the copyright law and DMCA. When they failed, they decided to use patents instead. And all this for what purpose? To prevent people from using cartridges manufactured by other companies, i.e. blocking competition and acting against free market and user rights. If this isn't abuse, I don't know what it is. I…
Didn't Gillette did the same thing with Dollar Shave Club? https://www.wsj.com/articles/p-gs-gillette-sues-dollar-shave... I would guess that this influenced their decision to sell to P&G, thus protecting the razor duopoly.
Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#114Without the guarantee of a patented marked up drug, would drug companies waste the same amount of money that they currently do on R&D? I'm of the opinion that we would see a major slow down in drug innovation without patents. R&D is very wasteful and expensive. Patents prevent competition for a short period of time to help the business recoup losses from failed experiments and to deliver profits which serve as an inc…
Of "new" medicines developed by actual pharmaceutical companies about half are just jamming two medicines that ought to be safe together into one.
Combine that with how most of the that R&D budget is to get drugs certified by the FDA and not to invent new ones and I fail to see how patents help the situation. It might be that without patents pharma companies might feel compelled to innovate more to stay ahead of their competition, but that is pure conjecture.
Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#115Earlier quoted context omitted.
* >Right now a significant portion of the patent lifetime is spent with the drug in clinical trials unable to be sold. >And for most new drugs, patents expire approximately 12 years after market introduction. https://hbr.org/2014/11/the-real-cost-of-high-priced-drugs Also: >Once a company has good data, the FDA approval process is moving faster than ever. According to the agency’s most recent progress report, the sta…
> >And for most new drugs, patents expire approximately 12 years after market introduction. The length of a drug patent is 20 years, 8 of which by your statement are spent in development. So yes, almost half the patent duration is spent with the drug off the market. This is burden almost no other industry has to deal with. My original statement is completely valid. > Hence why I also consider opening up the drug mark…
And yet they seem to be doing just fine, check that stock price chart above. Part of this is because 12 years is already pretty long, they're obviously making their money back. Also, there are all sorts of strategies these companies use in order to avoid true patent expiration.
>The problem is, these modified drugs don’t offer enough of an advantage over generic versions of the original molecules, says Jim Keon, president of the Canadian Generic Pharmaceutical Association. So the sophisticated lifecycle plans brand-name companies have for their products — rolling out new versions when patents near expiry — are created primarily to help bottom lines rather than patients. And the argument that this is necessary to earn enough money to reinvest in new R&D doesn’t hold much weight, suggests Keon, if that research only results in more “me-too” drugs. “They have to recoup R&D costs, yes, but the question is: Is it useful R&D? If the R&D is just to tweak a product to get more monopoly protection without really providing an improved medication, then maybe it doesn’t deserve a patent,” says Keon.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3680578/
>Nexium illustrates the drug makers’ strategy. Many chemicals come in two versions, each a mirror image of the other: an L-isomer and an R-isomer. (The “L” is for left, the “R” is for right.) Nexium’s predecessor Prilosec is a mixture of both isomers. When Prilosec’s patent expired in 2001, the drug maker was ready with Nexium, which contains only the L-isomer.
http://sm.stanford.edu/archive/stanmed/2005summer/drugs-meto...
>AstraZeneca somehow managed to convince the US Patent Office that Nexium was substantially different from Prilosec, and thus should be granted its own patent, along with 20 years of protection
http://acsh.org/news/2017/01/18/nexium-dark-side-pharma-1054...
* >Also, if I'm interpreting this correctly, nothing you posted suggests that the government is the primary backer of pharmaceutical research. We can argue over whether the research costs are 50 billion or 30 billion or whatever, but your original claim is still incorrect unless the numbers are off by literally an order of magnitude.
I admitted that was a tad misleading, here's the fact I was thinking of. I should have linked it earlier.
>An internal National Institutes of Health (NIH) document, obtained by Public Citizen through the Freedom of Information Act, shows how crucial taxpayer-funded research is to top-selling drugs. According to the NIH, taxpayer-funded scientists conducted 55 percent of the research projects that led to the discovery and development of the top five selling drugs in 1995. (See Section III)
http://www.citizen.org/publications/publicationredirect.cfm?...
* >Other countries place more stringent price ceilings on the cost of pharmaceuticals, which is why there is such a disparity between what we are paying and what others are paying. If we want to spread the cost burden geographically, countries benefiting from these products should be pressured to remove their price ceilings, which would lower costs in the US. Opening up the markets to other countries is just regulatory arbitrage, not spreading of cost burden.
I'm fine with the US or US industry "exerting pressure" on other countries to remove pharmaceutical price ceilings as long as we allow our citizens to buy overseas drugs first. Otherwise I don't see why Americans should suffer like this. American citizens alone bear the cost of R&D for the world because every other country sets price ceilings? Also, I'll just once again point out that our drug development industry is not struggling! It's doing great right now, they spend lots of money on dividends and stock buybacks and advertising and still make fantastic profits. They're fine.
Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#116I worked at Lexmark shortly after they spun off from IBM. As an intern in the early 90s I was tasked with researching crypto methods of securing their printer cartridges. Whoever bought or was running Lexmark from day one had these goals in mind as a key part of the value-add in buying IBM's old typewriter division. My answer, at the time, was 'no' there is no foolproof way of using crypto because the keys would have…
And you know, I have to say it: it's unethical, immoral, but it's not illegal to have a nefarious business plan, and I'm glad. To me, the larger issue is that the justice system has itself become a weapon to punish competitors, particularly through the use of IP claims. Punishment occurs long before conviction, when the cost of defending yourself can mean a significant and ongoing expense. A justice system that ignores reality, including economic reality, cannot be just.
Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#117Without the guarantee of a patented marked up drug, would drug companies waste the same amount of money that they currently do on R&D? I'm of the opinion that we would see a major slow down in drug innovation without patents. R&D is very wasteful and expensive. Patents prevent competition for a short period of time to help the business recoup losses from failed experiments and to deliver profits which serve as an inc…
I had exactly this argument with someone. It broke down to me figuring out where most of the new medicines are developed and it was something like 98%+ of medicines are developed by universities with public funds. Of "new" medicines developed by actual pharmaceutical companies about half are just jamming two medicines that ought to be safe together into one. Combine that with how most of the that R&D budget is to get…
Do you have a reference for this?
Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#118Earlier quoted context omitted.
The thing is there are printers without the stupid on the market. So the EFF is wrong, patents haven't savaged the printer marketplace, there are nice printers available that are not expensive. And it's wrong that the market will punish shitty products, Lexmark is one of the few survivors in the printer business.
It's arguable that Lexmark is misapplying patent protection in defense of its stupid business model. I mean, it's pretty obvious. And yet, if Lexmark were successful here, what would stop competitors from using that against them? As in, "Only fools buy Lexmark printers."
Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#119This is just an extension of a tied sale. Tying agreements are already illegal under anti-trust law. The only difference here is that Lexmark (and other companies) are skipping the contract/agreement part of it and going directly to forcing the hand of the consumer by adding new changes and inserting technology that has no other purpose than to specifically limit the consumer to purchase a related product (in this ca…
It's worth noting that tying agreements are no longer per se illegal in all cases. Courts have recognized procompetitive benefits in some cases. Now it's only under certain conditions. http://www.americanbar.org/groups/young_lawyers/publications...
Obviously, this wouldn't apply to the case at hand, though, as Lexmark is not a newcomer to the industry nor is the industry itself relatively new, thus requiring facilitation from tied sales.
If the USSC ends up ruling against Lexmark, the Justice Department should follow it up with indictments for felony violations of 15 USC.
Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”
#120Earlier quoted context omitted.
At the time of purchase you can find these things out by researching the price of the replacement ink cartridge and its page rating. (Page rating is soft/fudgeable but should at least be a reasonable way to ballpark the lifespan of the cartridge.) I would consider this cursory research when evaluating a purchase that takes an ongoing supply of consumables. To me it sort of seems like you're saying "Wow this dryer use…
So every time I buy a swifter or razor or dryer I have to do thorough research on things like power consumption, cost of replacement parts etc. No! I have a life, I have other things to do. I buy from large brand names like Lexar because I expect them to be honest and engage in fair dealing and because researching every aspect of products I buy would be a full time job in itself.
I'd even argue that selling a cheap ~$50 printer and then expecting to make it back on consumables is a legitimate business model. If you're the kind of person who prints once in a blue moon, it makes more sense than buying a ~$200 laser printer.
Printers are generally expensive and generally last a few years. They're not casual, off-the-cuff purchases. Much like a computer, they are a precision machine, but with many more moving parts. I really don't believe it's unreasonable to do a couple hours worth of research on something that'll be in your home or office, possibly doing Important Serious Business Things, for years.