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The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

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Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#91
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strategy people should be following is to buy the printer based on the cost of consumables. It's what I do. But most people do the strategy of 1. find the model where the company subsidizes the printer to sell the ink 2. Then try to work around the lockouts the company has on the ink market. Both sides are trying to screw each other over. I see no reason to care. If the people trying to use third-party ink really…

You are assuming that the average customer knows that the company is subsidizing the printer to sell the ink. . . I don't think that is true. I think the average person sees a great deal on a printer and is genuinely surprised when they find it drinks ink like it's Octoberfest.

At the time of purchase you can find these things out by researching the price of the replacement ink cartridge and its page rating. (Page rating is soft/fudgeable but should at least be a reasonable way to ballpark the lifespan of the cartridge.) I would consider this cursory research when evaluating a purchase that takes an ongoing supply of consumables.

To me it sort of seems like you're saying "Wow this dryer uses way more electricity than I thought it would!" or "Wow I bought this razor handle and the blades are really expensive!" or "Wow Swiffer really screws you with the replacement wipes!" or "Wow this car takes expensive tires!" -- even though the numbers for the ongoing consumables were available at the time of purchase.

Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If something is too expensive, wait a few years. Isn't that the point? In medicine, you often can't just wait it out. Healthcare is not a normal market. >By the time a major drug is ready for market, out of a 20 year patent there are usually only 5 years left. >And for most new drugs, patents expire approximately 12 years after market introduction. https://hbr.org/2014/11/the-real-cost-of-high-priced-drugs >When the…

> In medicine, you often can't just wait it out. Healthcare is not a normal market Then you pay. I have family members who are only functional because of prescription drugs. When I see someone on HN talk about how "oh, it will probably be okay if we mess with this market, I read this really cool article online that said so," I see them no different than someone who decided on their own to start tinkering with grandpa…

Why is one length of patent good for all drugs. Create the cure for cancer I can see you getting 30 years, add a antacid to an existing drug you should get 5.

Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In medicine, you often can't just wait it out. Healthcare is not a normal market Then you pay. I have family members who are only functional because of prescription drugs. When I see someone on HN talk about how "oh, it will probably be okay if we mess with this market, I read this really cool article online that said so," I see them no different than someone who decided on their own to start tinkering with grandpa…

Why is one length of patent good for all drugs. Create the cure for cancer I can see you getting 30 years, add a antacid to an existing drug you should get 5.

Perhaps they should be different, but people get most upset about the awesome drugs that cure things completely being under patent for so long. They don't care about that antacid drug so much. You would find yourself very short on allies with your proposal.

All the money going towards marketing would instead go towards lobbying, towards getting the government agency in charge of deciding "what really counts" for deciding that this drug should be one of them. When the US government was looking at how to create incentives for invention, they did look at rewards systems, and this was the common problem. Using the market system, for all its faults and ways it could be improved, at least sends proper price signals to producers and consumers.

Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just need shorter patents. For example drug companies spend far more on marketing than they do on R&D and a substantial amount of the research that generates new drugs comes from government funded research (>50%). Also, it's been demonstrated that taxpayer funded research drives private R&D up. So if I was dictator, I'd make it illegal to advertise drugs on tv/radio/web, double the current government budget for dr…

The government does not pay for development, they pay for a portion of basic research across all research areas (and it's nowhere near 50% of all research funds or drug research funds). The entire NIH budget is about 32 billion. Large pharma companies spent around 50 billion on R&D in 2010: http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v9/n3/full/nrd3078.html The incredibly expensive pharma and device development costs are shoul…

* >Right now a significant portion of the patent lifetime is spent with the drug in clinical trials unable to be sold.

>And for most new drugs, patents expire approximately 12 years after market introduction.

https://hbr.org/2014/11/the-real-cost-of-high-priced-drugs

Also:

>Once a company has good data, the FDA approval process is moving faster than ever. According to the agency’s most recent progress report, the standard review process now takes a median 10 months, down from nearly 13 months in 2005. Companies can shave another two months off if they get a priority review. In fiscal year 2014, the most recent data available, 92 percent of drugs were approved on first pass, up from 60 percent in 2005.

https://www.statnews.com/2017/01/31/trump-pharma-reality-che...

* >Shortening the patent lifetime would increase prices until the drug went generic, not decrease them,as companies would have less time to get ROI.

Hence why I also consider opening up the drug market to other countries. If drugmakers need to make all their profit front-loaded then they can at least spread it geographically so Americans don't have to suffer under these prices.

* >and trying to make it unprofitable would not help innovation.

Here is a comparison between the biotech industry and the S&P 500 starting from approximately the lowest point of the recession. Now come on, do you really think this industry is struggling? How is it that these companies get away with telling investors one thing ("business is great, invest!") and the public another ("regulatory overreach is killing us!")?

https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&...

* >The government does not pay for development, they pay for a portion of basic research across all research areas (and it's nowhere near 50% of all research funds or drug research funds). The entire NIH budget is about 32 billion. Large pharma companies spent around 50 billion on R&D in 2010: http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v9/n3/full/nrd3078.html

I'll admit, it looks like my number of over 50% came from 1995. Also, I spent a long time tracking down this 50 billion number and it's original source (took a bit). It looks like it was originally published here(and other PHRMA industry reports):

http://www.phrma.org/sites/default/files/pdf/2015_phrma_prof...

So PHRMA is an industry group and I was interested in their methodology which is also very hard to find but lo and behold:

>In 1991, Joseph DiMasi and colleagues from the Tufts Center for the Study of Drug Development published a widely quoted, comprehensive study of drug development costs. Using project data from confidential surveys, the study estimated cash outlays of around $169M to successfully bring a drug to market during a period beginning in the 1970s. PhRMA relies on this research as the foundation for their statements about the cost of drug development. However, PhRMA uses different assumptions about a "hidden" expense called "opportunity cost" that boosts this estimate to the $500 million mark.

>PhRMA's assumptions begin with DiMasi's original estimate of R&D outlays with opportunity cost set at 9% and a 12-year development period. A review of the Tufts study performed by the US Office of Technology Assessment (OTA) subsequently calculated opportunity cost at a higher rate, which pushed the estimate towards $360 million. According to Public Citizen, this figure, when adjusted for inflation and rounded up, became PhRMA's $500 million.

>But Public Citizen says the OTA report also offers an alternative analysis of development costs. R&D expenses are tax deductible, but DiMasi's 1991 figures didn't consider the discount this offers. If the original Tufts estimate is reduced by 34% in tax savings and opportunity cost is subtracted, Public Citizen says the actual cash outlay for bringing a new drug to market during the seventies and eighties was actually closer to $65 million. Public Citizen also stresses that, during the nineties, accelerated approval times and special tax credits further reduced the cost -- and the risk -- of researching and developing new drugs.

http://www.thebody.com/content/art13514.html

>Notably, as in the Center's previous estimates, nearly half the cost of drug development was accounted for not by research expenditures but by the cost of capital. The analysts justified that assumption by noting that during the years a company spends developing a new product, it incurs opportunity costs by not using those dollars for other purposes. That argument is plausible, and such calculations can be an appropriate component of such analyses. However, nearly half the total cost of developing a new drug ($1.2 billion) was ascribed to this cost of capital, with only $1.4 billion attributed to funds actually spent on research. These capital costs were assessed at 10.6% per year, compounded — despite the fact that bonds issued by drug companies often pay only 1 to 5%.

>The Tufts calculations also explicitly do not take into account the large public subsidies provided to pharmaceutical companies in the form of research-and-development tax credits or substantial payments received from the federal government for other research activities, such as testing their products in children. Perhaps most important, because the calculations are based only on products that the companies described as “self-originated,” the $2.6 billion figure does not consider drug-development costs borne by the public for the large number of medications that are based on external research that elucidated the disease mechanisms they address. One recent analysis showed that more than half of the most transformative drugs developed in recent decades had their origins in publicly funded research at nonprofit, university-affiliated centers.4

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1500848#t=article

* >The industry is much more complicated than you are making it out to be

You're right, the industry is very complicated, so please be careful not to let industry pull the wool over your eyes.

EDIT: I didn't realize how big this post had gotten. I need to get back to work, crap!

Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If something is too expensive, wait a few years. Isn't that the point? In medicine, you often can't just wait it out. Healthcare is not a normal market. >By the time a major drug is ready for market, out of a 20 year patent there are usually only 5 years left. >And for most new drugs, patents expire approximately 12 years after market introduction. https://hbr.org/2014/11/the-real-cost-of-high-priced-drugs >When the…

> In medicine, you often can't just wait it out. Healthcare is not a normal market Then you pay. I have family members who are only functional because of prescription drugs. When I see someone on HN talk about how "oh, it will probably be okay if we mess with this market, I read this really cool article online that said so," I see them no different than someone who decided on their own to start tinkering with grandpa…

>Then you pay.

And if you can't afford it? Does society pay? Do we let them die? I'm interested in your answer.

>I have family members who are only functional because of prescription drugs.

Me too.

>I don't know what the HBR's source is because they don't tell me.

And I don't know where your 5 year number comes from because you didn't provide a source.

When I see someone on HN talk about how "oh, it will probably be okay if we leave the market alone, I read this really cool article online that said so," I see them no different than someone who stood by a river and watched their grandfather struggle against the current, because "oh, it will probably be okay." You don't know what you are talking about. Stop it.

Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

R&D is ultra-expensive in-part because of government regulation. So the government is playing both sides of the ball: + Pile up mountains of red tape through the FDA + Provide patent protections for those with enough money to wade through the red tape + Give R&D grants to companies with taxpayer money to take up the slack in their budget So since R&D is so expensive, only large companies can afford it, which is just…

I think some regulation is needed though. I can't look at a generic white pill and tell whether it's oxycodone or acetaminophen. Also, I don't want to take your acetaminophen if it hasn't been proven that whatever is in it won't cause other more serious issues or that I've at least been adequately informed of those side-effects on the front-end. R&D is also in-part expensive because of the success rate of drug trials…

This problem can be solved with a voluntary certification, just don't buy pills, that are not certified by government or some organization you trust.

Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#98
I worked at Lexmark shortly after they spun off from IBM. As an intern in the early 90s I was tasked with researching crypto methods of securing their printer cartridges. Whoever bought or was running Lexmark from day one had these goals in mind as a key part of the value-add in buying IBM's old typewriter division.

My answer, at the time, was 'no' there is no foolproof way of using crypto because the keys would have to be stored in the chip that the refiller has access to. I'm sure there were actual engineers working on the same task, who I assume gave the same answer since they moved on to legal instead of technological means.

Even at the time, I was disheartened by the leadership's attitude and goals. Kind of amazing that for 20+ years they haven't abandoned this approach.

Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#99

It's interesting to note Lexmark tried to (ab)use other kinds of so-called "intelectual property" laws earlier: the copyright law and DMCA. When they failed, they decided to use patents instead. And all this for what purpose? To prevent people from using cartridges manufactured by other companies, i.e. blocking competition and acting against free market and user rights. If this isn't abuse, I don't know what it is. I…

Didn't Gillette did the same thing with Dollar Shave Club? https://www.wsj.com/articles/p-gs-gillette-sues-dollar-shave... I would guess that this influenced their decision to sell to P&G, thus protecting the razor duopoly.

They sold to Unilever not P&G.

Re: The US Supreme Court is hearing a case about patent law’s “exhaustion doctrine”

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is one length of patent good for all drugs. Create the cure for cancer I can see you getting 30 years, add a antacid to an existing drug you should get 5.

Perhaps they should be different, but people get most upset about the awesome drugs that cure things completely being under patent for so long. They don't care about that antacid drug so much. You would find yourself very short on allies with your proposal. All the money going towards marketing would instead go towards lobbying, towards getting the government agency in charge of deciding "what really counts" for deci…

You are probably right. We might have to accept less innovation in order to make the products affordable.
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