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The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

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Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#91

Post by mirimir »

maskros wrote: post #84
mirimir wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethanol is a bad counterexample. Most ethanol comes from corn, and most energy in corn comes from fossil methane, used to synthesize ammonia fertilizer.

Fertilizer only provides the nutrients (primarily nitrogen). The actual energy in corn comes from photosynthesis trapping the sun's energy in chemical bonds.

> We believe that outside certain conditions in the tropics most ethanol EROI values are at or below the 3:1 minimum extended EROI value required for a fuel to be minimally useful to society.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421513...

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#92

Post by imroot »

This isn't just something that's limited to John Deere tractors -- even though John Deere is using provisions of the DMCA to 'highly discourage' farmers from screwing with the internals.

Caterpillar also has a fair share of tractor hacking going on -- with dealers in China actively encouraging hacking and modifications of their equipment.

The reality is that if you've ever grew up on a farm, this type of thing is the norm -- smaller farmers don't always have the cash to do costly repairs and if there's a way to make it work in a non-standard way, a lot of times the temporary solution becomes the permanent one. Buy a tractor with a smaller PTO, but, have a larger one available? Cut it out, put the new one on. Diesel tractor but your family also owns a restaurant? Modify it to run on old oil.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#93

Post by j_s »

kelvin0 wrote: post #88
bougiefever wrote: post #78

Farmers are an independent group. They are used to relying on their own skills and hard work to make a living, and they are not going to tolerate this. I think it is an overreach for John Deere and other manufacturers to control what I do with my (my!) devices. I really hope this law gets passed to prevent companies from doing this. Farmers can really help, because everyone knows we depend on them for our food, so an…

I think you are right, however it kinda seems they already put up with a lot more from companies selling them their 'patented' seeds and the constraints that come with those seeds. I once saw a doc mentioning a farmer that got 'fined' by a seed company because he had some seeds he did not pay for in his crop, these few plants that grew because the neighboring farmer was using them and the wind blew some on the side o…

"Monsanto wins landmark patent case in Supreme Court"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5700514

tptacek 1408 days ago:

Once again regarding this story: to understand what's happening here, it's very important that you understand that the farmer didn't just acquire Monsanto seeds, but also used glyphospate herbicides on the crops. The point of Monsanto's invention is that it survives Roundup; if you spray Roundup on normal crops, they die.

Most people who see this story play out seem to think that it implies a Monsanto seed could blow onto your field and then get you sued. But of course, if you didn't know you were planting Monsanto seeds, you wouldn't think to try to kill them with Roundup.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#94

Post by nextweek2 »

I have a friend that services and repairs combine harvesters for a living. He tells me that he rarely has to do any welding or heavy lifting any more because the reliability and mechanics of the machines have become very reliable.

He's spends most of his time diagnosing on-board electronics. Which he says is the root of the discord with farmers. They think of their tractor like a hoe, you plonk it in the ground and get going. Where as the modern farm tractor or combine is actually a complex set of computer systems with literally thousands of sensors.

Farmers see the manufacturer as trying to extort on-going revenue, whereas manufacturers are trying to provide a new generation of smart farming. Getting 1 cm precision of sowing and fertiliser spreading is the innovation that the technology is delivering. The problem is that nobody wants to pay for that ongoing data processing.

This is going to happen with cars as well. It seems to me that people should rent/lease rather than buy because of this constant need for updates and servicing.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#95

Post by bb101 »

Incredible. At what point in time did the land of the free become the land of undisguised fascist corporatism? Does John Deere actually think they are achieving something positive with their behavior?

First they came for the farmers, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a farmer.... -- Niemöller

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#96

Post by davidgrenier »

nextweek2 wrote: post #94

I have a friend that services and repairs combine harvesters for a living. He tells me that he rarely has to do any welding or heavy lifting any more because the reliability and mechanics of the machines have become very reliable. He's spends most of his time diagnosing on-board electronics. Which he says is the root of the discord with farmers. They think of their tractor like a hoe, you plonk it in the ground and g…

If nobody's willing to buy it then it means there's no market for them to sell that offering.

Their strategy will alienate their consumer base which hopefully would make room for other businesses to thrive where there's an actual market (the hoe they plonk in the ground).

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#97

Post by weberc2 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #42
weberc2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. My argument was that their incentive is to avoid being sued, not profiting from a monopoly. 2. What monopoly are you proposing? A monopoly on the software that comes with the tractor?

I don't know if avoiding liability for their products is great way to make money or not. But if they are making a large effort to avoid liability, they are doing that as a way to guarantee profits - ie, make money. Deere effectively has a monopoly on tractors at the scale discussed in the article. That's why farmers are buying the tractors and illegally moding them rather than buying competing brands - see comments e…

I'm not following. At which scale does John Deere have a monopoly?

Anyway, There's nothing nefarious about protecting your profits by avoiding liability. You seem to want Deere to be this evil corporation, which simply doesn't resonate with my experience in any way.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#98

Post by [deleted] »

joe_the_user wrote: post #42
weberc2 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. My argument was that their incentive is to avoid being sued, not profiting from a monopoly. 2. What monopoly are you proposing? A monopoly on the software that comes with the tractor?

I don't know if avoiding liability for their products is great way to make money or not. But if they are making a large effort to avoid liability, they are doing that as a way to guarantee profits - ie, make money. Deere effectively has a monopoly on tractors at the scale discussed in the article. That's why farmers are buying the tractors and illegally moding them rather than buying competing brands - see comments e…

[deleted]

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#99

Post by chrisbennet »

Check this out: https://industryhack.com/challenges/hack-the-harvester/

"We invite all hackers, designers and forest machine enthusiasts to hack the harvester. We will take you to a visit to the Ponsse’s manufacturing factory, show harvesters in action and provide you with different APIs and data sets from the forest machines and the maintenance process. Now, Ponsse wants to build a community of tech startups and talented developers with whom co-operation can be continued."

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#100

Post by nkrisc »

mr_overalls wrote: post #83

The installation of black-market Ukrainian firmware is a potential infosec nightmare. Imagine what a tempting target this would be for Russian intelligence services to backdoor! In the event of open conflict with the United States, they could potentially paralyze a large portion of US agricultural capacity.

If the idea occurred to you, I'm sure Russian intelligence has had the idea too.
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