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The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

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Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#31

Post by joe_the_user »

weberc2 wrote: post #16
hamandcheese wrote: post #4

How is this practice even legal? Could auto manafuctirers do the same thing? I'm sure they discourage aftermarket programming and whatnot, but using DRM to prevent DIY repairs is bringing things to a whole new level.

Former John Deere employee here. The company isn't being spiteful or doing this to corner the repair market; they do it to avoid legal liability and fraudulent warrantee claims. They're an extremely risk-averse company. EDIT: By the way, I favor owner's rights (my family farms with Deere equipment, and I think there's tons of mutual advantage in open sourcing software in this case specifically and in general), but as…

"...as is often the case, the "greedy corporate oppressor" narrative is too simple."

What part of the things you describe aren't done with the purpose of making the company money? I mean, "we're risk-averse so we force the risk onto you" is kind of the same as "we don't want to spend money so we inconvenience you".

Of course, companies are in business to make money and will tend to use whatever avenues are open. When a company starts using a monopoly position to impose legal restrictions on customers (whether to avoid risk of losing money or just to make money), sympathy for their money-making efforts tends to lessen.

Edit: Note that the approach of Deer is not warranty voiding if someone hacks the software but a license agreement which effectively terminates the ability of the farmer to use the vehicle and thus the defense above is pretty disingenuous.

See: https://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#32

Post by weberc2 »

ethbro wrote: post #24
weberc2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former John Deere employee here. The company isn't being spiteful or doing this to corner the repair market; they do it to avoid legal liability and fraudulent warrantee claims. They're an extremely risk-averse company. EDIT: By the way, I favor owner's rights (my family farms with Deere equipment, and I think there's tons of mutual advantage in open sourcing software in this case specifically and in general), but as…

From that perspective, it does start to look dicey in terms of "offer a lengthy and full service warranty" + "allow the end user to make modifications", so I understand that perspective. But I do think there's a lot of room for detecting what changes were made and honoring / invalidating the warranty depending on them. Rather than simply saying "something was changed, therefore we invalidate the whole warranty."

The warrantee issue I mentioned was fraud--that is, sinking costs into investigating additional warrantee claims which turn out to be due to user manipulation. I suspect this is less of a concern compared with the legal liability of injury resulting from modification--I imagine it behooves the company to be able to point to the EULA and say, "look, we're doing everything we can to make sure this doesn't happen". This is complicated by the fact that they have to comply with laws in virtually every second and third world country, not just the US. It's just easier to be conservative with a blanket EULA. They could probably devise a more nuanced approach, but it would probably be costly and they probably have better (read: higher customer value) things they could put that money toward.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#33

Post by dirkg »

This sort of thing is becoming the norm, and will become the norm with IoT. When every device is connected and has a computer, it can and will have the ability to be locked down, intercepted and monitored remotely.

People don't know or care about privacy, that's been amply proven, they just want rhetoric.

This is basically lending equipment while paying full price. We've gotten used to it with software, phones etc. Its absolutely ridiculous they have to sign agreements that exempt the company from any wrongdoing, and aren't allowed to perform basic repairs.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#34

Post by michaelbuckbee »

dirkg wrote: post #33

This sort of thing is becoming the norm, and will become the norm with IoT. When every device is connected and has a computer, it can and will have the ability to be locked down, intercepted and monitored remotely. People don't know or care about privacy, that's been amply proven, they just want rhetoric. This is basically lending equipment while paying full price. We've gotten used to it with software, phones etc. I…

What you are (accurately) describing is the high end of the IoT space. The low end is almost equally disconcerting but in the other direction: no updates, no responsibility and wildly vulnerable to attack.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#35

Post by weberc2 »

joe_the_user wrote: post #31
weberc2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former John Deere employee here. The company isn't being spiteful or doing this to corner the repair market; they do it to avoid legal liability and fraudulent warrantee claims. They're an extremely risk-averse company. EDIT: By the way, I favor owner's rights (my family farms with Deere equipment, and I think there's tons of mutual advantage in open sourcing software in this case specifically and in general), but as…

" ...as is often the case, the "greedy corporate oppressor" narrative is too simple. " What part of the things you describe aren't done with the purpose of making the company money? I mean, "we're risk-averse so we force the risk onto you" is kind of the same as "we don't want to spend money so we inconvenience you". Of course, companies are in business to make money and will tend to use whatever avenues are open. Wh…

1. My argument was that their incentive is to avoid being sued, not profiting from a monopoly.

2. What monopoly are you proposing? A monopoly on the software that comes with the tractor?

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#36

Post by weberc2 »

Cyph0n wrote: post #29
weberc2 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While John Deere does buy OEM parts, it designs and builds a lot of stuff in house, including engines. It owns and operates foundries and it even designs its own embedded computers (and writes the firmware, operating system, CAN drivers, and application software). It probably takes longer to prepare the factory for a new model-year build of an existing tractor than it takes some software vendors to get an MVP to mark…

I'm assuming you mean a metal foundry and not a semiconductor foundry? Still, the fact that they build their engines in-house is pretty impressive. I believe that many auto makers purchase their engines instead of designing then in-house because they are so complex to get right.

Both. They've operated their own foundries for longer than I've been alive; probably closer to a century. They've since purchased at least one semiconductor company to design and manufacture some of their electronics. And yes, John Deere has built its own engines for a long time; the division is called Power Systems or JDPS, and they build engines in factories all over the world, and they sell their engines to other equipment manufacturers as well.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#37

Post by pacificleo11 »

weberc2 wrote: post #32
ethbro wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that perspective, it does start to look dicey in terms of "offer a lengthy and full service warranty" + "allow the end user to make modifications", so I understand that perspective. But I do think there's a lot of room for detecting what changes were made and honoring / invalidating the warranty depending on them. Rather than simply saying "something was changed, therefore we invalidate the whole warranty."

The warrantee issue I mentioned was fraud--that is, sinking costs into investigating additional warrantee claims which turn out to be due to user manipulation. I suspect this is less of a concern compared with the legal liability of injury resulting from modification--I imagine it behooves the company to be able to point to the EULA and say, "look, we're doing everything we can to make sure this doesn't happen". This…

This is very similar to CPU overclocking. fraudulent warranty replacement claims were rampant untill recently but that intel fixed it .

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#38

Post by belorn »

vvanders wrote: post #7

> Kluthe, for example, uses pig manure to power his tractor, which requires engine modifications that would likely violate John Deere's terms of service on newer machines. > "I take the hog waste and run it through an anaerobic digester and I've learned to compress the methane," he said. "I run an 80 percent methane in my Chevy Diesel Pickup and I run 90 percent methane in my tractor. And they both purr. I take a lot…

If this actually is illegal, then Danny Kluthe is doing the opposite of hiding the fact. He even went out to talk to state legislature about it and is actively doing political work around the subject.

A lot of tools can be used for legal and illegal purposes, but in this case there is a lot of eye balls that had all the possibility in the world to claim a case of violated environmental laws and yet clearly that has not happened.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#39

Post by Lio »

M_Grey wrote: post #22
CuddleMuffin wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes black markets are simply a way to get a product cheaper (or free) but the best way to beat the market is a better product and not lawyers. I used to be a heavy user of pirated PC games but have stopped completely now that game developers actively update games for years after their release. Probably a pain for the developers but the shift has lead to much better products and gives a strong incentive to legal…

I agree strongly with the statement about games, and it's not just about service. When I was younger, sometimes pirating was the only way to get a game... it wasn't always easy to find a copy. Music has definitely improved too, unless you use a pure streaming service at least. Meanwhile... the BBC will make you seriously consider the merits of piracy. It's 2017, and some people really haven't figured out that when yo…

I watched my first home BlueRay disc two days ago.

Someone brought it round and I remembered that my PS4 could play them. To do so it had to connect to the internet. (Tracking/Logging maybe?)

Like the scene in the Sooranos where the wives come round to watch a DVD, it forced me to sit through those "FBI yada yada even though you don't live in America" and "personal opinions of the cast blah blah" disclaimers before for the film would start.

Haven't had to see those since streaming services became available.

Also reminded me that if I'd pirated the film I would have had a better experience than purchasing the legitimate product.

Streaming services are saving the movie industry from itself.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#40

Post by varjag »

vvanders wrote: post #7

> Kluthe, for example, uses pig manure to power his tractor, which requires engine modifications that would likely violate John Deere's terms of service on newer machines. > "I take the hog waste and run it through an anaerobic digester and I've learned to compress the methane," he said. "I run an 80 percent methane in my Chevy Diesel Pickup and I run 90 percent methane in my tractor. And they both purr. I take a lot…

Methane burns cleaner than petrol.
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