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The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

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Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#21

Post by weberc2 »

gcb0 wrote: post #9
scotch_drinker wrote: post #5

Seems like a great opportunity for Kubota. Or some other tractor company. Or I guess a "startup" that makes tractors though I wonder what the time to market on that would be.

since all manufacturers just assemble readily available parts , time to market will probably be less than software. you'd be surprised how many common parts are in a ford and bmw. Mostly exterior and dashboard are trade secrets today.

While John Deere does buy OEM parts, it designs and builds a lot of stuff in house, including engines. It owns and operates foundries and it even designs its own embedded computers (and writes the firmware, operating system, CAN drivers, and application software). It probably takes longer to prepare the factory for a new model-year build of an existing tractor than it takes some software vendors to get an MVP to market. There's lots of inefficiency there, but it's not likely a startup will be disrupting this industry anytime soon (and if they do, it will look more like fleets of small, simple, semi-autonomous drone tractors than conventional equipment).

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#22

Post by M_Grey »

CuddleMuffin wrote: post #18
thecolorblue wrote: post #3

I have generally thought that any black market like this one is a sign of an opportunity for a better product. Is this universally the case? Are there black markets where there is not an opportunity for disruption?

Sometimes black markets are simply a way to get a product cheaper (or free) but the best way to beat the market is a better product and not lawyers. I used to be a heavy user of pirated PC games but have stopped completely now that game developers actively update games for years after their release. Probably a pain for the developers but the shift has lead to much better products and gives a strong incentive to legal…

I agree strongly with the statement about games, and it's not just about service. When I was younger, sometimes pirating was the only way to get a game... it wasn't always easy to find a copy. Music has definitely improved too, unless you use a pure streaming service at least.

Meanwhile... the BBC will make you seriously consider the merits of piracy. It's 2017, and some people really haven't figured out that when you back people into a corner online, they can just pirate their way out of it.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#23

Post by ethbro »

hwillis wrote: post #13
vvanders wrote: post #7

> Kluthe, for example, uses pig manure to power his tractor, which requires engine modifications that would likely violate John Deere's terms of service on newer machines. > "I take the hog waste and run it through an anaerobic digester and I've learned to compress the methane," he said. "I run an 80 percent methane in my Chevy Diesel Pickup and I run 90 percent methane in my tractor. And they both purr. I take a lot…

Great point. This isn't like biodiesel or ethanol, where the co2 would end up in the air anyway. A methane generator actively creates a carbon form that is significantly worse for the environment.

It's not like he's dumping the methane in the environment though (e.g. dumping manure on a field): it's ultimately being run through a combustion engine.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#24

Post by ethbro »

weberc2 wrote: post #16
hamandcheese wrote: post #4

How is this practice even legal? Could auto manafuctirers do the same thing? I'm sure they discourage aftermarket programming and whatnot, but using DRM to prevent DIY repairs is bringing things to a whole new level.

Former John Deere employee here. The company isn't being spiteful or doing this to corner the repair market; they do it to avoid legal liability and fraudulent warrantee claims. They're an extremely risk-averse company. EDIT: By the way, I favor owner's rights (my family farms with Deere equipment, and I think there's tons of mutual advantage in open sourcing software in this case specifically and in general), but as…

From that perspective, it does start to look dicey in terms of "offer a lengthy and full service warranty" + "allow the end user to make modifications", so I understand that perspective.

But I do think there's a lot of room for detecting what changes were made and honoring / invalidating the warranty depending on them. Rather than simply saying "something was changed, therefore we invalidate the whole warranty."

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#25

Post by loeg »

hamandcheese wrote: post #4

How is this practice even legal? Could auto manafuctirers do the same thing? I'm sure they discourage aftermarket programming and whatnot, but using DRM to prevent DIY repairs is bringing things to a whole new level.

Tesla does something very similar to this.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#26

Post by frik »

Isn't it crazy that certain new tractors (eg John Deere) and cars (eg Tesla S) come with dongled software? Just to destroy the reseller and after market, such evil things got introduced. If one buys a good, it should be his very own, like the law reads. Though this concerning movement is destroying the very fundament of owning goods. (Owning avgood is a lot cheaper in the long run. Also you can buy a good, when you have the money and still continue using it when you don't, because you own it. You can even sell the good to get some value of it back - well not anymore if you buy a good a dongled software with a kill switch - than you might own just a very expensive brick)

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#27

Post by hwillis »

ethbro wrote: post #23
hwillis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. This isn't like biodiesel or ethanol, where the co2 would end up in the air anyway. A methane generator actively creates a carbon form that is significantly worse for the environment.

It's not like he's dumping the methane in the environment though (e.g. dumping manure on a field): it's ultimately being run through a combustion engine.

Methane leaks. In the US, so much of it leaks that it's a greater source of ghg than cows and manure, if I recall.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#28

Post by frandroid »

ethbro wrote: post #23
hwillis wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point. This isn't like biodiesel or ethanol, where the co2 would end up in the air anyway. A methane generator actively creates a carbon form that is significantly worse for the environment.

It's not like he's dumping the methane in the environment though (e.g. dumping manure on a field): it's ultimately being run through a combustion engine.

More specifically, he captures his methane. I mean it still turns into water and CO2 once burned, but...

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#29

Post by Cyph0n »

weberc2 wrote: post #21
gcb0 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

since all manufacturers just assemble readily available parts , time to market will probably be less than software. you'd be surprised how many common parts are in a ford and bmw. Mostly exterior and dashboard are trade secrets today.

While John Deere does buy OEM parts, it designs and builds a lot of stuff in house, including engines. It owns and operates foundries and it even designs its own embedded computers (and writes the firmware, operating system, CAN drivers, and application software). It probably takes longer to prepare the factory for a new model-year build of an existing tractor than it takes some software vendors to get an MVP to mark…

I'm assuming you mean a metal foundry and not a semiconductor foundry?

Still, the fact that they build their engines in-house is pretty impressive. I believe that many auto makers purchase their engines instead of designing then in-house because they are so complex to get right.

Re: The thriving black market of John Deere tractor hacking

#30

Post by throw_away »

hwillis wrote: post #13
vvanders wrote: post #7

> Kluthe, for example, uses pig manure to power his tractor, which requires engine modifications that would likely violate John Deere's terms of service on newer machines. > "I take the hog waste and run it through an anaerobic digester and I've learned to compress the methane," he said. "I run an 80 percent methane in my Chevy Diesel Pickup and I run 90 percent methane in my tractor. And they both purr. I take a lot…

Great point. This isn't like biodiesel or ethanol, where the co2 would end up in the air anyway. A methane generator actively creates a carbon form that is significantly worse for the environment.

Are we sure that the anaerobic digester is a net carbon producer? What would have happened to the hog waste otherwise?

This article would imply that there are other environmental factors to consider: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/10/141028-hog-f...

Steve Wing, the UNC-Chapel Hill epidemiologist, says hog operations give off ammonia, methane—a potent greenhouse gas—and hydrogen sulfide, which causes headaches and eye irritation. They also release endotoxin, an allergen, and at least a hundred volatile organic compounds, many of which contribute to the odor of hog farms.

[...]

The result? The covers trap odors, making the operation less smelly. Rain falling on the farm isn't contaminated by lagoon waste. And the farm is transforming waste into electricity-generating enough to power 90 refrigerators.

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