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GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

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Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#371

Post by walshemj »

JangoSteve wrote: post #221
shawnee_ wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The result is that contract forms have become a sort of IP-free zone. Exactly. One of the sleaziest tricks used by Realtors (most Realtors are not lawyers) is getting clients to sign their forms: their terms usually have the word "percent" hard-coded into the contract. Rather than opening the door to hourly or fixed dollar amounts, they insist that their forms are the "standard". I heard one recently say in a public…

> I've been trying for a long time to alter the common perception that Realtors add value; they don't. I've heard this before, but when we bought a house, our realtor added a ton of value. She went out and found houses that we wouldn't have found; sure, most of them came from MLS, but there were a few she found just by driving by or by asking fellow agents. She even triaged a couple for us (by going to look at them w…

doesn't the USA have the concept of a survey which is done for a fixed fee by a separate surveyor that looks at the property and lists any defects found,

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#372

Post by SystemOut »

guelo wrote: post #265
danvasquez29 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not arguing against there being value, but there are credit rehab companies that would have probably cost you a lot less than the realtor's commission. Many basic credit consulting services are free. I bought a home recently and work in the mortgage industry. My opinion: the buyer's agent should be a flat negotiated fee, maybe an hourly rate. There is very little that most do that the buyer can't do themselves. If th…

The seller's agents are indeed salesman but their incentives don't end up quite aligned with the seller's. For example let's say a selling agent is getting 6% on a house listed at $500k. If it sells at $500k he gets $30k, if it sells at $520k he gets $31k. If he were to get a $500k offer it probably isn't worth his time to put in a lot of extra effort to try to get that extra $1k, but to you that extra $19k is a lot…

One minor nit. The selling agent doesn't get 30K. They get 15K because the buyer's agent also gets 15K in most normal deals. From that 15K their firm probably takes somewhere between 30-50% depending on the volume and size of deals they close. I'm not saying they're worth 7-10K but it's a far cry from the 30K you speak of. Which reinforces your point even more. They don't get compensated enough to spend another few weeks trying to get you 20K more.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#373

Post by kcorbitt »

ghurtado wrote: post #345
protonfish wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was it Joel Spolsky? https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...

I used to respect him, but that post is so wrong on so many counts regarding US IP law and "work for hire" stipulations that I couldn't get myself to finish reading even half of it. "be careful before taking legal advice from the Internet." - Indeed, Joel. Indeed.

Your critique would be much more useful if you explained what he's wrong about. As someone who has done a small amount of contract work in my career, his summary broadly matches my personal understanding.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#374

Post by YZF »

braythwayt wrote: post #276

Once upon a time, I was looking for a job, in straightened circumstances. I found a so-so match, and since I was in danger of missing a mortgage payment, I decided to accept their offer. Pragmatism and all that. Well, I went in and picked up the documents, and told them I needed to read them before signing and returning them to the company. I looked at the IP clause, and it said the company owned anything and everyth…

I think it's very unlikely that the company would go after you for revenues from your blog and at the same time another company could go after you even if there was no IP clause in the contract because they would argue that an implied contract existed or whatever other reason they chose. The papers you signed mean something but they are in the context of other laws and legal precedence.

I don't stop thinking about work when I'm at home or it's after 5pm. If the solution for a bug comes to my mind in the middle of the night I'm not going to sell it back to the company because I own it. Like it or not, the kind of job we do is like that. I think the key is to ensure that your compensation is adequate for this expectation. Similar IP clauses are part of standard contracts for almost every company in almost any geography. In some ways they protect you as well because they help ensure your coworker doesn't steal company secrets. Companies going after employees for random side projects or blogs is almost unheard of (I've never heard of it) even though pretty much every employee signs similar contracts.

A standard contract probably also says something about it being subject to change and about needing to follow other company policies. So even if there was no explicit IP clause it could be hidden in some company policy.

EDIT: I doubt the hiring manager meant that you can't play the guitar or engage in any other creative activity in general. But OTOH I don't think it's unreasonable to expect an employee not to engage in activities that would negatively impact his job performance. E.g. not to hold two full time dev positions concurrently in two companies and similarly not to have a full time, or something approaching full time, side project. If you burn out because you're trying to work on a side project while having a "full time" dev job that's really not playing by the spirit of the employment contract.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#375

Post by erichurkman »

walshemj wrote: post #371
JangoSteve wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been trying for a long time to alter the common perception that Realtors add value; they don't. I've heard this before, but when we bought a house, our realtor added a ton of value. She went out and found houses that we wouldn't have found; sure, most of them came from MLS, but there were a few she found just by driving by or by asking fellow agents. She even triaged a couple for us (by going to look at them w…

doesn't the USA have the concept of a survey which is done for a fixed fee by a separate surveyor that looks at the property and lists any defects found,

Yes, but that doesn't include things like "are the homes next door foreclosures" or "are the schools terrible" or "are the nearby parks full of used needles".

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#376

Post by MadManE »

pc86 wrote: post #90
MadManE wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not been my observation. People assume that if you have a lot of money, you must be good at something, not that you are inherently good.

It seems a lot of folks on HN think that if you have a lot of money, you either made it in a startup, and are thus brilliant, or you made it in any other fashion, and are probably a crook.

I don't think those are mutually exclusive options, myself. I would classify a lot of startup founders as crooks.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#377

Post by amyjess »

turc1656 wrote: post #317
braythwayt wrote: post #276

Once upon a time, I was looking for a job, in straightened circumstances. I found a so-so match, and since I was in danger of missing a mortgage payment, I decided to accept their offer. Pragmatism and all that. Well, I went in and picked up the documents, and told them I needed to read them before signing and returning them to the company. I looked at the IP clause, and it said the company owned anything and everyth…

"Now that you mention it, I'm not sure I want to employ someone who uses their creative energy for anything except the company's business." Wow. That statement alone tells you everything you need to know about that person and what kind of manager they are. The fact that it was the founder is just...wow. Since it was the founder, if I was in your shoes I would have asked this fool if they took that same approach when…

> The fact that it was the founder is just...wow.

Eh, I can see it. Any company where potential new hires directly negotiate with the founder is one where the founder is waaaaaaay too hands-on for comfort. A founder who's that involved in the day-to-day is likely to be exploitative.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#378

Post by JangoSteve »

flamedoge wrote: post #362
JangoSteve wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been trying for a long time to alter the common perception that Realtors add value; they don't. I've heard this before, but when we bought a house, our realtor added a ton of value. She went out and found houses that we wouldn't have found; sure, most of them came from MLS, but there were a few she found just by driving by or by asking fellow agents. She even triaged a couple for us (by going to look at them w…

how much of that did you take at face value? why give realtors such credit without qualifying data... unqualified "advice" should be looked at...

I don't understand the question. Are you asking, how much of of the advice did I do further research for and make sure she was giving good advice? All of it.

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#379

Post by amyjess »

gingerbread-man wrote: post #334
serg_chernata wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now that you mention it, I'm not sure I want to employ someone who uses their creative energy for anything except the company's business. I don't think I'll ever understand that attitude. If you're a founder, the business just may be the work of your life. To expect the same level of dedication and obsession from your employees is utterly obscene. If you're lucky enough to find someone who genuinely feels that way,…

Put less brusquely, though, it sounds like what most early-stage startups (fairly) expect. At that stage, working long hours is usually part of the deal, and you're probably getting big equity and a substantial chunk of their last round. It would be a little weird if you had hours of free time for personal hacking after that.

...and this is why I categorically refuse to work for an early-stage startup and why I despise startup culture. I have no desire to ever work for a company with fewer than 500 employees ever again (yes, I worked for an abusive startup in the past; I'll not be burned again).

Re: GitHub lets staff own IP developed for personal projects using company resources

#380

Post by kcorbitt »

braythwayt wrote: post #276

Once upon a time, I was looking for a job, in straightened circumstances. I found a so-so match, and since I was in danger of missing a mortgage payment, I decided to accept their offer. Pragmatism and all that. Well, I went in and picked up the documents, and told them I needed to read them before signing and returning them to the company. I looked at the IP clause, and it said the company owned anything and everyth…

> There was no way I wanted to be in a position where I would feel like I had no choice but to accept an offer like this.

For me, that's the biggest takeaway from your story. When you're in a situation where you need money NOW, employers and creditors have all the power and can make your life hell with impunity. Most of us don't have F U money, but everyone should have a 3-6 month emergency fund and live comfortably within their means. It makes decisions like this one a lot easier. You can't put a price on having options.

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