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EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

detroitnews.com

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Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#171

Post by jahaja »

chii wrote: post #168
jahaja wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Economics are true whether or not your ideology agrees This is not true. Hence the old name Political economy. There's no such thing as objective economics - much to the annoyance of usually libertarians. And to add to this discussion there's no way that this would happen and not be fixed where I live no matter the profitability of the municipality itself. If the municipality couldn't pay for it, the state would. A…

people are just arguing over each other because the other's point of view is unimaginable. on the one hand, providing basic necessities which is deemed a basic human right, like clean water, is a no brainer. it should be done regardless, and if the city cannot afford it, it ought to be subsidized by an out of city entity like the state. on the other hand, what's the worth of these human lives? if it cost more money t…

Yes, the latter is deeply unethical in my book. If the same standards of "economical/business sense" are applied to more things, of equal necessity, it would create a completely dystopian society.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#172

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

rayiner wrote: post #165
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how much do you pay for it?

England's water system was privatized in the 1980s, and prices went up significantly. But that's also kind of the point. One of the reasons U.S. water infrastructure is so bad is that bureaucrats set the water/sewer rates too low to appropriately fund upgrades.[1] Regulators set rates way too low, because they'd rather poison children (who don't vote) with lead than raise water rates on grandmas (who do vote). [1] ht…

I don't think that "too cheap" is an issue because the state can put subsidies in place. The core issue is lack of oversight and that can happen in public and private environments.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#173

Post by badsock »

cookiecaper wrote: post #127
badsock wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...in America. There's lots of developed countries where municipal governments are generally well run as a rule, and while there's always grumbling things never get this out of hand. Lead is posion, for pete's sake. Where else in the developed world would poisoned drinking water be allowed for so long? In Canada we had what we consider a big disaster 17 years ago: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/inside-walkerton-canada…

There are many well functioning local governments in the United States. The US is a big country both in terms of habitable land and population, with almost 325 million people (Canada technically has more land, but since most of it is uninhabitable, they don't have to worry about plumbing it). You've read about ONE city where the mismanagement was so severe that the water became poisonous. I'm sure it's not the only o…

For the record, I don't raise this because it's "fun to throw rocks at the big guy". Your country is saturated by propaganda, which I'm fine with, but unfortunately it's leaking. People in my country listen to your media take this anti-government stuff seriously, even though we don't have the same kinds of problems, and it has a real effect on the electorate.

It was obvious when the Obamacare debate first started and for a week or two the US paid attention to how healthcare worked in other countries. All the sudden these hit pieces started showing up about how bad healthcare is in Canada and the UK, with all this exaggerated garbage about wait lists etc. Or recently with Norway and the "Islamic plague". It's absolute propaganda, taking the tiniest grain of truth and turning it into a giant calamity for political purposes, even though the truth on the ground (which is obvious to anyone in those countries) isn't even remotely similar.

Like I said, if your country wants to do that, that's fine. But I feel obligated to point out that you can't just look at America's government and declare that all government is that wasteful and ineffective.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#174

Post by LoonyBalloony »

CountSessine wrote: post #114
ubernostrum wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do short sellers punish the executives of the company? Even if they lose their jobs, they'll get millions of dollars in "performance" bonuses and millions more in severance in return for running the company into the ground.

I wonder how often this really happens though? Often boards will appoint CEOs to dismantle or sell off hopeless companies (disappearing market, obstreperous union, product is turning into a commodity) in a last ditch effort to recover some shareholder value. We can't call those CEOs failures if they manage to get shareholders something as opposed to the nearly nothing they would get if the company went bust. I think…

"I wonder how often this really happens though?"

Only when it happens to the "right people".

;) ;) wink wink ;) ;)

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#175

Post by LoonyBalloony »

funkyy wrote: post #77
BurningFrog wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controversial opinion: Governments are inherently bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next election.

Then create an independent organisation handling things with a fixed budget based on % of federal revenue. This should solve this.

I think solving the problem would require getting humans out of the process... since we are always our own worst problem. (IMO)

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#176

Post by LoonyBalloony »

orasis wrote: post #60
scythe wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saving $140/day at the risk of $100M damage to infrastructure is not good financial sense. It's the financial sense exercised by the kind of person who expects someone else to pay for the mess, i.e. a government official. A private corporation which was exposed to the liability would have likely chosen to raise the price of water to pay for the corrosion inhibitor, but someone whose job is to manipulate the balance s…

If that private corporation were a mining company in Montana they would choose to take the profits, go bankrupt, and again have the people pay to clean up the mess.

And thats a wise business decision.

But if you want to erase your student loan debt with bankruptcy you're a lazy mooch who should just get a part time job to pay for college like I did back in the '60s. /s

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#177

Post by LoonyBalloony »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #79
ozi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does it become cheaper to relocate everyone in Flint to a new city?

We're already at that point financially, although we haven't quite acquired the political will yet.

And if we are taking this long to fix Flint's problem, imagine how long it will take for the rest of the nation to realize housing first initiatives are a better solution to homelessness then the justice system?

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#178

Post by LoonyBalloony »

blurbleblurble wrote: post #29
bpodgursky wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The city manager was only appointed after Flint became effectively a failed city, and the state took over management. In the US, cities manage their own municipal services including water supplies. The state only intervenes when the city runs out of money to provide basic services to their inhabitants -- and this happens very rarely. If Flint had had a functioning government, the state appointees would have had nothi…

Relocated like cattle to another pasture? I can't for the life of me understand this philosophy that financial economy under-girds life.

Its simple really.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX0fIi3H-es

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#179

Post by new299 »

Symbiote wrote: post #164
new299 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give some examples of those countries? Which countries are doing well and have governments that their people are generally happy with and consider representative of the people?

Most of Europe to at least some extent, with variations on different subjects. For example, in some countries people are dissatisfied with immigration policy, but they're probably happy with the roads and water supply.

Not the UK: In which probably 50% of the population feel the government doesn't represent them. Not France I'd guess? Which seems to have issues and strong probability of a Frexit? Not Italy, whose politics as seemed somwwhat messy for some time?

Those are the countries in Europe that are "doing well" in terms of GDP at least. Aside from Germany that is.

So is Germany the role model? I'm really trying to ask an honest question. I'm wondering which are the countries currently doing well economically and treating their citizens well.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#180

Post by kakarot »

blurbleblurble wrote: post #105
kakarot wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more abouy failed leadership than failed engineering. It has to do with how Flint spread responsibility over their water source so thin that no one was to blame and no one had the full picture. Laziness gave way to corruption. I'm sure there were protests from the engineering team.

You do realize that Flint's local government was usurped by an emergency economic manager, right?

I sure do and I realize this was largely the State's fault. I didn't mean to say "Flint spread the responsibility so thin" so much as "The responsibility was spread thin between Flint and the State"
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