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EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

detroitnews.com

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Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#71
post #66

This is a disaster happening all over the country. The EPA estimates we will need $385 billion by 2030 to modernize water infrastructure. Putting municipalities in charge of utilities is basically a failed model. Municipalities are too small a unit to be able to effectively take on the long term obligations that come along with infrastructure like this, or cross subsidize from richer residents to poorer ones. Even ma…

All that I know is we were able to afford the infrastructure originally under a higher tax regime. That suggests to me that we can afford to solve this problem, even if it means that the wealthy are contributing back to the country that provided the business and social environment to do so.

> That suggests to me that we can afford to solve this problem

I don't think that follows. It's certainly not true in software.... it's cheap to add things in the beginning of the design process, but gets exponentially harder as you add more complexity. And in general in homebuilding remodels are at least a factor of two more expensive than new construction.

Putting down a water main while you're building a street and before you've built any houses seems substantially easier than replacing a water main while dealing with traffic and a block full of customers who need continuous water supply. Not to mention more stringent building codes and such.

I think it should be done regardless, because it's generally impossible for people to run their own water lines, so the State has a moral imperative to do it. But I can easily see it being much more expensive than the original build.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm proposing we throw good money into basic human necessities instead of investing in weapons, and that our measures of success be linked to human health and wellbeing, not to level of absolute exploitation.

I wish that was on the table. Even still gp's point would stand that beggars have a hard time justifying being choosers.

Appreciate this moderate take. It's the cold hard truth of American capitalism, especially in places like Michigan, but it doesn't mean we can't wish for humane policies!

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framing it that way misses an important part of the story. It was the institutional and regulatory failure during the switch away from Detroit city water that made the lead an emergency. Part of the reason that happened is that Flint had depopulated and was basically a failed city. It's not acceptable that it happened, but it didn't happen just because Flint was trying to skimp on infrastructure 40,50,60 years ago.

They skimped (ie entirely did not use) on corrosion inhibitors when the water supply was switched. I believe those are the "savings" OP was referring to. "By not adding a corrosion inhibitor, Flint was going to save about $140 per day. " http://theconversation.com/the-science-behind-the-flint-wate... "Replacement of Flint’s lead service lines, which is the only permanent solution to address its lead vulnerability, is…

At what point does it become cheaper to relocate everyone in Flint to a new city?

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#74
post #66

This is a disaster happening all over the country. The EPA estimates we will need $385 billion by 2030 to modernize water infrastructure. Putting municipalities in charge of utilities is basically a failed model. Municipalities are too small a unit to be able to effectively take on the long term obligations that come along with infrastructure like this, or cross subsidize from richer residents to poorer ones. Even ma…

Controversial opinion: Governments are inherently bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next election.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#75
post #66

This is a disaster happening all over the country. The EPA estimates we will need $385 billion by 2030 to modernize water infrastructure. Putting municipalities in charge of utilities is basically a failed model. Municipalities are too small a unit to be able to effectively take on the long term obligations that come along with infrastructure like this, or cross subsidize from richer residents to poorer ones. Even ma…

Controversial opinion: Governments are inherently bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next election.

With that simplistic logic, public corporations are inherently​ bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next quarter.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#76
post #66

This is a disaster happening all over the country. The EPA estimates we will need $385 billion by 2030 to modernize water infrastructure. Putting municipalities in charge of utilities is basically a failed model. Municipalities are too small a unit to be able to effectively take on the long term obligations that come along with infrastructure like this, or cross subsidize from richer residents to poorer ones. Even ma…

They overstate this stuff, all of the time.

My wife was a finance director at a municipal water utility in an old city. Water supply infrastructure wasn't a ticking timebomb -- many pipes last literally centuries, and utilities can proactively use sensors and robots to find weak pipes to repair without digging up half the city. They had a capital program that worked, lines were replaced based on risk and there was a reserve for breaks or other failures.

The higher risk area from a cost point of view is sewers. They don't age as well and as we pave move stuff, many older sewers and combined storm/sanitary systems are unsafe and vulnerable.

The Flint issue isn't about old pipes. It's about incompetent engineers who should be criminally charged for incompetence.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#77
post #66

This is a disaster happening all over the country. The EPA estimates we will need $385 billion by 2030 to modernize water infrastructure. Putting municipalities in charge of utilities is basically a failed model. Municipalities are too small a unit to be able to effectively take on the long term obligations that come along with infrastructure like this, or cross subsidize from richer residents to poorer ones. Even ma…

Controversial opinion: Governments are inherently bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next election.

Then create an independent organisation handling things with a fixed budget based on % of federal revenue.

This should solve this.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Controversial opinion: Governments are inherently bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next election.

With that simplistic logic, public corporations are inherently​ bad at managing anything that stretches beyond the next quarter.

Which is why there are so many large capital private equity groups.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#79
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They skimped (ie entirely did not use) on corrosion inhibitors when the water supply was switched. I believe those are the "savings" OP was referring to. "By not adding a corrosion inhibitor, Flint was going to save about $140 per day. " http://theconversation.com/the-science-behind-the-flint-wate... "Replacement of Flint’s lead service lines, which is the only permanent solution to address its lead vulnerability, is…

At what point does it become cheaper to relocate everyone in Flint to a new city?

We're already at that point financially, although we haven't quite acquired the political will yet.

Re: EPA gives Flint $100M to help repair pipes

#80
post #4

And how much did the city originally "save"? This affair should be poster child for being pennywise and pound foolish with our infrastructure.

I suspect the primary cause was engineering incompetence rather than a desire to save money. The water quality problems were caused by a lack of corrosion inhibitors; corrosion inhibitors would have cost $140/day, which is cheap compared to the $4 million that Flint spent upgrading the water treatment plant. It seems most plausible to me that the Flint engineers simply weren't thinking about the need for corrosion inhibitors.
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