Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality • Hacker News Board

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#501

Post by intended » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 6:26 AM UTC

cableshaft wrote: post #427

soverance wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment totally needs to be higher. Every other comment on this thread makes little to no mention of "Skinner Box Design", when design tactics like these are almost certainly the #1 factor for creating video game addicts. The issues we're discussing in this thread start with the game designer. Cognitive flow is a real thing, and game designers have learned through decades of research and testing how to put playe…

Also a game designer here (and programmer). I think you should be clear that a game designer is not always the one who makes the decisions on how to monetize a game. Often it's the people who are in charge of financing the game's development, i.e. publishers or executives. In fact, often game designers would rather not do this pay to win crap, although it's hard to ignore that it does seem to be the primary way peopl…

This is NOT going to work, You alone can do nothing.

There is NO way, an indie, or a Game firm, can afford to NOT make as much money as their competitor in the industry is making.

1) Margins and discovery is difficult in this industry.

2) If you are a public company, you will face management and market pressure to improve your numbers which means going ahead and making a skinner box.

This is straight up a case for legal frameworks and avenues for legal recourse to be made available.

So no - you wont manage it on your own. Its not possible.

You WILL manage it by connecting with other game devs, writers, reviewers, indies, game houses, parents, programmers - especially people who get why this is an issue (as opposed to the ones who are happy with the status quo)

I know that there is at least one other Game dev who recently spoke out against this (Also consider that NOT having addiction boxes as your competition means the hooks and attention grabbers in gamers are shallower. This both reduces the size of the population.

You are definitely not alone. This is precisely what needs collective effort at an international scale. Farmville/candy crush is as effective as it is in California, as it is in Cochin, or Trindiad.

Frankly, I wouldn't be damned surprised if eventually a law firm does catch on, and then targets the entire industry.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#502

Post by dang » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 6:26 AM UTC

alphonsegaston wrote: post #66

Every job I've worked in my adult life has involved being judged by standards the boomers doing the judging could never live up to, and then covering for their incompetence with technical skills(because I'm young, so I can just do that stuff). It would be such a sad joke if it weren't for the fact that they squat in every opportunity young people have for their futures (real estate, higher positions, etc) while the y…

Generational flamewars are one of the circles of hell that we're hoping to avoid here. Please don't do this again.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13891018 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#503

Post by intended » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 6:33 AM UTC

soverance wrote: post #399

intended wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and others on HN also need to consider a very critical issue on game design: SKinner boxes posing as games. While youth unemployment in itself generates flight/distraction direct behavior, game designers themselves are creating absolutely unethical skinner boxes which will generate addictive behavior. This is like dumping a slot machine into the hands (literally) of vulnerable children/young adults (also…

This comment totally needs to be higher. Every other comment on this thread makes little to no mention of "Skinner Box Design", when design tactics like these are almost certainly the #1 factor for creating video game addicts. The issues we're discussing in this thread start with the game designer. Cognitive flow is a real thing, and game designers have learned through decades of research and testing how to put playe…

This issue gets little traction, and has been going on for way too long.

I argue that this problem be posed as one of collective action as opposed to individual responsibility.

As comments have already shown, people will point out that if they don't do it, the competition will. IF the larger group uses abhorrent systems, people will just say its normal, and do nothing.

Individual responsibility will only get us as far as comments on social media.

There is instead a larger coalition of people ranging from devs, non dev coders, game houses, parents who will be able to collectively push for changes and organizations to manage this.

This will require legal frameworks and legal recourse. Private incentives are not aligned to create a healthy environment.

It is also possible that the entire industry can soon get sued, which I suppose is one way of attempting to deal with it.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#504

Post by touchofevil » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 6:38 AM UTC

taway_1212 wrote: post #478

touchofevil wrote: post #311

I played A LOT of competitive Magic: The Gathering from about age 14-21. We used to call it "cardboard crack" so we all understood that the game was addictive. I had a lot of fun and met some great people, but even back then I knew that I had a problem with the game and that I was addicted to it. This was before people talked about gaming addiction and I don't think American society understood that it could actually…

I dunno, I also played a lot of competitive M:tG, between 17 and 22, but I found it very fulfilling. I made some of my life-long friends through it, I went to places all over Europe (for tournaments) and overall had a ton of fun. That was mostly before the advent of Magic Online, I understand that now Magic can be largely played like other online video games (plus the skill level is way higher, because the most obses…

The social aspect of the game was definitely the best part for me as well. I met great people who were outside of my usual social circle through the game and that was fantastic. I never touched Magic Online, thankfully.

I was always trying to come up with some new combo or some deck that had never been tried before and because of that I had a tendency to think about the game a lot. I liked the mad science aspect of deck building, but that took up a lot of time. I don't play anymore, but I'm always right on the brink of getting back into the game and I follow the current competitive decks. Just the other day I spent several hours designing decks after I realized that you could exploit Key to the City by tapping it with Pacification Array in standard. After spending about 5 hours going down rabbit holes coming up with decklists, I realized I had just wasted most of the day and that I would have to commit further time to actually playing one of those decks at a FNM tournament. I was hit with a familiar feeling of regret for wasting time. That feeling often gnawed at me after having played Magic when I was younger. I guess you could say I have a love/hate relationship with Magic.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#505

Post by dang » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 6:38 AM UTC

throwaway420 wrote: post #428

dropit_sphere wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between "cliche" and "same, tired," and "tried-and-true"? (That is a rhetorical question, but the reader is encouraged to answer it for themselves as an exercise). There is a nearly irresistible temptation for people reading comments like the grandparent to engage in tribal thinking. "I'm against being a dick to women," they think, "This guy, who shows signs of being a dick to women, therefore…

a) Just for the record, I'm not a fan of being a "dick" (more on that below) towards women. My thought-crime was merely pointing out how gaming communities insult everybody equally and don't just insult women because they are women. I would have thought that a community like HN would understand that this was an explanation of what I believe happens, not an endorsement. b) I'd like to make a mild observation. You used…

These sorts of arguments are worn and tedious. Please just don't conduct them on HN.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#506

Post by nunez » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 7:29 AM UTC

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #273

coliveira wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is too easy for people who have "made it" to say this. I have kind of made it too, so I could have the same attitude. The problem however is that anecdotes don't proof a point. You have to look at numbers. Numbers say that the majority of Americans are losing purchasing power year after year, and there are fewer middle class jobs. Somehow, the 1% have more privileges each passing day, they pay close to nothing in…

Where do you think rich people put their wealth? A savings account?

Some do

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#507

Post by nunez » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 7:31 AM UTC

mfukar wrote: post #347

greenhatman wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no guarantee for anything. That is not a reason not to try. There is literally nothing better to do with your life than try. So just try.

This is the same kind of "advice" depressed people get. "Have you tried getting better"? "You just need to be happy". "Try my coping mechanism". "See a standup comedian". "Just try". I hope I don't have to go through all the reasons this is fundamentally disconnected from the problem described in the article now.

What's your alternative?

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#508

Post by nunez » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 7:32 AM UTC

antisthenes wrote: post #456

nunez wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's the alternative? Give up and cry before even trying? Knowing that you might fail and flame out is the definiton of risk; you do it because the upside is worth it

Obviously the people who drop out of the labor force don't think the upside is worth it. Otherwise they'd be out there, looking for work. Instead of dismissing the possibility that they act in their rational self interest, perhaps you can study how the actual risk/reward ratio evolved for these people over the course of the last few decades. But that would be quite a bit harder than giving self-help advice on the int…

Okay, but you still haven't presented me with an alternative.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#509

Post by hyperpallium » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 12:23 PM UTC

erikpukinskis wrote: post #447

hyperpallium wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about gradients in evolution, what directions are fruitful for an organism to evolve in. The acceleration in intelligence in our line would seem to require an ongoing survival-advantage gradient for intelligence (that somehow, wasn't available to other apes...). It also relates to the brain-body ratio for species, because investing in intelligence works for them - it says something about that speci…

I doubt we're more intelligent than apes. We just have some specialized language machinery that allowed a new parasitic species (memes) to evolve on top of us. We're just apes with a "copy" button in our brains. We look intelligent, but that's just because we're being farmed by memes. The memes aren't smart either, but the 2-layer system is smarter than any 1-layer system.

Our brains are much larger than apes' (IIRC about 4x), but survival advantage based on memes could well have provided the gradient. BTW yes, I have read The Selfish Gene, where Dawkins coined the term and concept.

Re: Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality

#510

Post by ethbro » Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 1:44 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #207

ethbro wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the Boomers were pretty happy with the Greatest. You know, defeating genocide, sowing the seeds for a decades long wave of economic expansion, technological advancement, and peace (albeit by not managing to swap nukes with the Soviets).

> I feel like the Boomers were pretty happy with the Greatest. Yeah, there wasn't like a big youth counterculture in the 1960s-1970s rebelling against the previous generation that was then dominant in society and government over major international policy (Hello, Southeast Asia), domestic policy, notions of public and private morality, and, basically, every other aspect of life. You might have a better case with Gen…

Point. Although I'd argue that the economic trends of the 1950s-1970s were in-spite-of rather than because-of the counterculture movement (Piketty, Capital, war being the greatest economic equalizer, etc). But the 60s definitely did hasten the unseating of previous thoughts and people in positions of power.

We're probably just starting to tip past Boomer-in-power to GenX-in-power in the upper echelon of power structures.

Which incidentally probably explains why older companies finally seem to be starting to "get" the internet, now that I think about it...