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When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

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Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#101

Post by thebooktocome »

skystrife wrote: post #78

If this had occurred in the US (and the mentioned confidential conversation did in fact allege sexual misconduct), DJB would be in trouble: > Within the University of Illinois System, ALL employees, unless specifically exempted, are “Responsible Employees” with the responsibility and authority to report sexual misconduct to their university's Title IX Coordinator. The only employees who are exempt from this reporting…

> But how does one enforce Title IX outside of the country in which it was passed?

The NSF is able to revoke the funding. I don't know if they've ever done that for a foreigner violating Title IX, however.

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#102

Post by belorn »

pfarnsworth wrote: post #4

Wow this blog post makes djb sound like such a scumbag. The idea that he would ask people to consider the allegations "false" is absurd (there's a difference between presuming innocence vs presuming the the allegations are false). I would love to hear his side of the story.

Are we talking about the allegations of rape, or the allegations of slander? djb consider both allegations to be possible true and false.

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#103

Post by thebooktocome »

belovedeagle wrote: post #40
pseudalopex wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the article published what he claims were emails sent by Bernstein. If the entire story is fabricated, Bernstein's side is "I never sent those emails".

On the contrary, the emails seem very credible and do not in any way shake my confidence that the entire story is fabricated. The accuser refuses, when asked, to put any accusations into a formal statement, instead relying on making blog posts such as the this. To me that sounds very much like (a) someone deliberately making false accusations and/or (b) someone in need of help for mental illness. I can think of no ot…

Did you read the post? The accuser did make several "formal statements", most of which went ignored.

> On my return, with an alternate way to stay in the EU secured, I prepared a written complaint and sent it to our department secretary on the 22nd of August...

...

> At the beginning of September, I spoke to two people in HR for nearly two hours, answering their follow-up questions about the complaint I had sent them.

...

> While in North America, an HR rep contacted me to tell me that I needed to personally meet with yet another person at the university, who is in charge of scientific integrity. I sent this person a copy of the same written complaint I had already sent to HR, and arranged a meeting.

So that's four or five people who received a formal, written statement from the accuser, and did nothing in response.

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#104

Post by [deleted] »

objclxt wrote: post #52
flukus wrote: post #14

This sort of stuff, character assassination based on hearsay, used to be considered tabloid journalism, something no one with half a brain would read. Now it get's up voted every time on HN.

> This sort of stuff, character assassination based on hearsay It's interesting you say it's "hearsay" when Jacob Appelbaum voluntarily resigned his job at Tor after allegations of sexual misconduct, allegations which Tor then hired an independent investigator to follow-up who found them to be largely true. But sure, "hearsay"...

[deleted]

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#105

Post by belorn »

skystrife wrote: post #78

If this had occurred in the US (and the mentioned confidential conversation did in fact allege sexual misconduct), DJB would be in trouble: > Within the University of Illinois System, ALL employees, unless specifically exempted, are “Responsible Employees” with the responsibility and authority to report sexual misconduct to their university's Title IX Coordinator. The only employees who are exempt from this reporting…

While its different in each country, I know that teachers and counselors can be required by law to personally report such crimes to the police. If I remember right, this is true for Sweden, which would in this case result in a police report and then no further actions or communications from the university (in order to allow the police to do a proper investigation without interference). If it is a student that is accused, then the university might not even be allowed to suspend the student, through the police can of course put the accused in holding if the police suspect a continuation of crimes or interference of the investigation.

Compared to the US system, I actually prefer this way since it puts the whole process into its proper place as soon as possible, and puts a form of common-sense approach when a university employee hear or witness a crime.

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#106

Post by wefhui »

flukus wrote: post #67
objclxt wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd rather an industry with 0 women than one where mere allegations [...] are career ending. You seem to assume sexual misconduct only happens when women are in the workplace, which is plain wrong. You do know that sexual misconduct can happen between two people who aren't women, right? The misogyny in your comment is pretty overwhelming.

How is it misogyny? It's not a hatred, contempt or prejudice against women, just a statement of what I consider to be the lesser of two bad outcomes. > You do know that sexual misconduct can happen between two people who aren't women, right? The modern definition, yes. A lot of what is considered sexual harassment is considered to just be banter when it's between men.

The author of this article is a man.

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#107

Post by flukus »

wefhui wrote: post #106
flukus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it misogyny? It's not a hatred, contempt or prejudice against women, just a statement of what I consider to be the lesser of two bad outcomes. > You do know that sexual misconduct can happen between two people who aren't women, right? The modern definition, yes. A lot of what is considered sexual harassment is considered to just be banter when it's between men.

The author of this article is a man.

And how does the gender o the author change anything about the individual calling me a mtsoginist here?

By HN standards the account would be banned, they just don't realise the term has devolved into the equivalent of fucktard.

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#108

Post by flukus »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #74
objclxt wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd rather an industry with 0 women than one where mere allegations [...] are career ending. You seem to assume sexual misconduct only happens when women are in the workplace, which is plain wrong. You do know that sexual misconduct can happen between two people who aren't women, right? The misogyny in your comment is pretty overwhelming.

What? The idea of "men only harass women" is not misogyny.

Shh, they don't deal well with logical contradictions to ideology.

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#109

Post by tptacek »

sulam wrote: post #80
syswsi wrote: post #50

Is this a common thing in the infosec industry? Personally I have known two people who were sexually harassed who work in security. I've also hung out with some and they do seem to have an unrealistic view on the opposite sex. Some examples I've found of documented cases: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/female-hackers-st... https://www.the-parallax.com/2015/10/26/how-myth-of-meritocr...

Crypto absolutely attracts a strange group of people as compared to other disciplines. That includes some people who are very liberal in their definition of consent, almost by definition, which in turn can affect other areas of their life. [Note: I am not making excuses for their behavior, although I'd hope that would not need saying.]

Are you an academic cryptographer? I'm not, but I'm a practicing crypto engineer, and I go to the occasional conference and workshop. What I've noticed is that crypto is far better about stuff like this than CS and certainly than infosec; I think it's a consequence of crypto being as much a part of mathematics as about computer science.

Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are

#110

Post by tptacek »

sulam wrote: post #81
viraptor wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But DJB doesn't _keep_ records of confidential things -- hence his insistence that they start from the beginning. I call BS on this, if we're talking about adults at university positions. The reasonable response in that case is: "I do not have any archives. Please resend everything you've got.", not starting from the beginning without communicating that fact clearly. If someone fails to act properly in that positio…

You're talking about a crypto researcher here. Their behavior absolutely does include a much higher level of awareness around the handling of confidential information. He may well have a policy that all confidential communication is treated separately, including being automatically wiped after some period of time. This would need to be standard for his work as it relates to investigating 0day and other vulnerabilitie…

What do you think crypto researchers are? It's not a cloak and dagger field. It's applied mathematics research. You've never seen a group of people less wrapped up in spycraft than the attendees of an academic crypto workshop. That's one of the things that made Appelbaum's admission to Dan and Tanja's research group so weird.

Think "math department", not Defcon.

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