Earlier quoted context omitted.
From the article: "Dan has written at some length about the importance of “due process”, both internally to the research group and externally to the world. But it’s telling to notice that in every such discussion, Dan carefully avoided any mention of concrete processes: he did not define the “different procedures” suddenly required for him to take action, nor what “proper procedures” should be followed." This is pate…
i mean those e-mails by Dan you quoted are pretty incriminating themselves
When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
71–80 of 122 posts
Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am one of the people who upvoted this article. How else do you want people to bring problems out in to the open? The author of the article used their real name, made several references to other people and told their side of the story. Now its up to the accused to tell their side of the story. Even take legal action if the story is untrue. For an industry trying to get more females to take part in it, sentiments lik…
> For an industry trying to get more females to take part in it, sentiments like this against possible victims is not what we should hold. I'd rather an industry with 0 women than one where mere allegations (let's not pretend there haven't been some rather high profile false allegations) are career ending. On balance this guy does sound like a creep, but I don't think issue's like this should be tackled in public wit…
However, it seems their job is actually to limit damage to the university's reputation.
Institutional responses to sexual accusations are traditionally terrible (we're having a Royal Commission into exactly this in Australia at the moment). Horrific sexual abuses have only come to light precisely because people refused to follow the procedures and keep quiet.
Sometimes the only way to get something recognised is to go public. It's a brave step, because a lot of people will react badly to accusations of sexual misconduct (for some reason).
Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#73Since this post casts djb in an unfavorable light, I feel it's important to post some of his emails here, so that his words can stand alone, uncolored. From https://www.hdevalence.ca/etc/34de2f3c2a48f7da/EmAiLs.txt "Hi everybody, As most of you know, we hired Jake for a 5-year PhD program, starting with a 50-50 split between Tor and TU/e, and increasing TU/e percentage assuming that the first year goes well. The Tor…
From the article: "Dan has written at some length about the importance of “due process”, both internally to the research group and externally to the world. But it’s telling to notice that in every such discussion, Dan carefully avoided any mention of concrete processes: he did not define the “different procedures” suddenly required for him to take action, nor what “proper procedures” should be followed." This is pate…
======
https://www2.ed.gov/about/offices/list/ocr/docs/qa-201404-ti... (Pages 12 & 13 most notably)
D. Responsible Employees and Reporting22 D-1. Which school employees are obligated to report incidents of possible sexual violence to school officials? Answer: Under Title IX, whether an individual is obligated to report incidents of alleged sexual violence generally depends on whether the individual is a responsible employee of the school. A responsible employee must report incidents of sexual violence to the Title IX coordinator or other appropriate school designee, subject to the exemption for school counseling employees discussed in question E-3. This is because, as discussed in question A-4, a school is obligated to address sexual violence about which a responsible employee knew or should have known. As explained in question C-3, the Title IX coordinator must be informed of all reports and complaints raising Title IX issues, even if the report or
22 This document addresses only Title IX’s reporting requirements. It does not address requirements under the Clery Act or other federal, state, or local laws, or an individual school’s code of conduct. Page 15 – Questions and Answers on Title IX and Sexual Violence complaint was initially filed with another individual or office, subject to the exemption for school counseling employees discussed in question E-3. D-2. Who is a “responsible employee”? Answer: According to OCR’s 2001 Guidance, a responsible employee includes any employee: who has the authority to take action to redress sexual violence; who has been given the duty of reporting incidents of sexual violence or any other misconduct by students to the Title IX coordinator or other appropriate school designee; or whom a student could reasonably believe has this authority or duty. 23 A school must make clear to all of its employees and students which staff members are responsible employees so that students can make informed decisions about whether to disclose information to those employees. A school must also inform all employees of their own reporting responsibilities and the importance of informing complainants of: the reporting obligations of responsible employees; complainants’ option to request confidentiality and available confidential advocacy, counseling, or other support services; and complainants’ right to file a Title IX complaint with the school and to report a crime to campus or local law enforcement.
======
I don't know the people involved in this story, and have no stake/stance on the claim itself (I'm not involved in infosec). However, given similar stories when Title IX issues arise in athletics where coaches/athletic directors/etc. try to avoid taking responsibility for reporting sexual harassment/assault allegations that have been vocalized and/or do not inform complainants of their full options, it sounds very likely that the professors did not take proper action if Title IX applies because the onus is on an employee to take action when the employee gets wind of an allegation. Probably the biggest case in the sports world that exemplifies this is the Sandusky rapes and Penn State, where allegations were not reported up the chain.
I'm not sure what the jurisdiction is here, and whether it was something under US jurisdiction (I saw some talk about UIC, short for Univ. of Illinois-Chicago, but also a Dutch university as well). I just thought to add some context around this type of issue that many here may not be aware of - Title IX is considered extremely serious with regards to the US education system.
Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For an industry trying to get more females to take part in it, sentiments like this against possible victims is not what we should hold. I'd rather an industry with 0 women than one where mere allegations (let's not pretend there haven't been some rather high profile false allegations) are career ending. On balance this guy does sound like a creep, but I don't think issue's like this should be tackled in public wit…
> I'd rather an industry with 0 women than one where mere allegations [...] are career ending. You seem to assume sexual misconduct only happens when women are in the workplace, which is plain wrong. You do know that sexual misconduct can happen between two people who aren't women, right? The misogyny in your comment is pretty overwhelming.
Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there now? By all means describe what objectively differentiates inappropriate from harassment.
Farting is inappropriate but not harassment (usually). There is a huge range of behaviour that's can be inappropriate but not harassment.
Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#76Earlier quoted context omitted.
Farting is inappropriate but not harassment (usually). There is a huge range of behaviour that's can be inappropriate but not harassment.
How exactly is farting inappropriate?
Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#77Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#78> Within the University of Illinois System, ALL employees, unless specifically exempted, are “Responsible Employees” with the responsibility and authority to report sexual misconduct to their university's Title IX Coordinator. The only employees who are exempt from this reporting requirement are professional or pastoral counselors who provide work-related mental-health counseling, campus advocates who provide confidential victim assistance, and employees who are otherwise prohibited by law from disclosing information received in the course of providing professional care and treatment. Student and graduate employees are handled differently at each university. Please reference the Responsible Employee Resource Page under the "Portfolio" and Resources tabs. Please remember that all references to Responsible Employees are references to YOU and apply to you in your capacity as a university employee.
To me, this would mean that he is a mandatory reporter, and I am unaware of any scenario where you are freed from that obligation because it was a "confidential conversation".
The weird part comes in when you realize that (a) this is happening outside of the US, but (b) DJB likely has NSF grants, which require adherence to Title IX (this is what the author is referring to when he brings up Title IX training). But how does one enforce Title IX outside of the country in which it was passed?
Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
> For an industry trying to get more females to take part in it, sentiments like this against possible victims is not what we should hold. I'd rather an industry with 0 women than one where mere allegations (let's not pretend there haven't been some rather high profile false allegations) are career ending. On balance this guy does sound like a creep, but I don't think issue's like this should be tackled in public wit…
The university involved has employed people specifically to deal with the issues raised, precisely so that people don't go to the police. However, it seems their job is actually to limit damage to the university's reputation. Institutional responses to sexual accusations are traditionally terrible (we're having a Royal Commission into exactly this in Australia at the moment). Horrific sexual abuses have only come to…
I honestly don't know why we allow institutions to handle matters like this internally.
Re: When ‘he’ll be kept on payroll, somewhere’ is where you are
#80Is this a common thing in the infosec industry? Personally I have known two people who were sexually harassed who work in security. I've also hung out with some and they do seem to have an unrealistic view on the opposite sex. Some examples I've found of documented cases: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/female-hackers-st... https://www.the-parallax.com/2015/10/26/how-myth-of-meritocr...
[Note: I am not making excuses for their behavior, although I'd hope that would not need saying.]