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Keep the Internet Open

blog.samaltman.com

231–240 of 415 posts

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#231

To the folks on HN who don't vehemently, vehemently oppose a non-neutral system, your line of thinking puzzles the hell out of me. Is the idea that government regulation is bad in all cases but corporate regulation is OK in all cases? Why? Because you've bought into free market forces making all things better no matter what ? Those forces only make things better unless they don't. To me, it's crazy that's not immedia…

How about I don't know if I support or oppose net neutrality because depending on the source it means something different. I would love to see an actual technical, written definition so that I could tell my Congress folks to put it in a bill.

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Re: Keep the Internet Open

#232
post #227
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first point is exactly what Comcast can do with their own video service that they can't do with a random video service. (They can do it with someone like Netflix with open content servers.) If NN were structured such that a company like Netflix had to provide content servers for internal-to-network deployment or netflix customers would higher rate or lower performance for Netflix traffic, but Comcast had to charg…

I found the wording in your second sentence a bit confusing but I think that simply goes back to the fair/open aspects: let Comcast put VOD servers in every neighborhood in the country, but require them to allow Netflix, Google, etc. to purchase rack-space at cost so they have the option of parity.

Yes -- if they are a regulated monopoly, that is the best way to allow some bits to be "premium". I think CDNs would likely also put servers in those places, so smaller sites would have the ability to use them as well.

Competition > Regulated Monopoly > Unregulated Monopoly. (A duopoly which decides not to compete isn't really competition.)

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#233
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "net neutrality" extremism So the NN side are the extremists. Not the side that wants to radically change the way the internet has worked for 40 years. Not the side that wants to upend the most innovative segment of the economy in favor of dinausour monoplies, radically reshaping the foundations of billions of dollars in investment and billions more in created wealth. Those guys are "conservative" right?

reasonable political ideologies can lead to "extreme" outcomes. (I consider an extreme outcome to be one that requires human nature to change, in order to be successful.) Since I think bureaucrats are gonna bureaucrat, handing them power over anything is a terrible idea. Are companies good? no, many of them are terrible. But if enough people don't like a company, the company ceases to exist. I've yet to see a similar…

Comcast is one of the most hated companies ever but they only keep getting bigger.

"Bureaucrats" are ultimately responsive to the politicians which are ultimately responsive to us, as we see with Trump now getting the power to reshape Obama's FCC policies. I'll tell you this, if they really go through with giving the web over to the ISPs for them to ruin with nickel and dime schemes voters will eventually force your new favorite bureaucrats to back down.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#234
post #130

This is a difficult question. Emotionally, I am a net neutrality absolutist, but I think I can talk myself out of it, which to me means that the conversation is complex. Should the power company be able to offer you a discounted rate if you host equipment that offsets their cost (for instance: a powerwall)[1]? I think that the answer to that question is yes. Well okay, then should your ISP be able to offer you a disc…

I think a closer analogy would be: Should the power company be able to offer you a discount based on the brand of appliance you use. e.g. If you had a GE fridge in your house should you get a discount on your power usage (all other things being equal). So if you have a GE fridge you pay $0.10 per kilowatt, but a Samsung fridge will cost you $0.15 From my perspective, along the last mile a bit is a bit. The fact that…

I really want the electricity analogy to be good, but the reality is that it isn't.

A bit is not a bit. Some bits actually are cheaper to deliver than others.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#235
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My default heuristic is "anytime someone uses "think of the children" as an argument for protection, they have chosen one of the slipperiest of slopes to stand upon." I doubt I'm the only one. I recommend picking a better argument than CP to defend net neutrality.

How about any criminal activity of any kind? Do you plan to be held liable for spammers/scammers using your network? Why was your vetting process for new users so poor? Why are you controlling unsolicited SIP telephony traffic? You either follow net neutrality or you can try and get along without common carrier protections.

Exactly. You can't have it both ways: you want total control over the traffic on your network, you get total liability for it too. You want to be a blind carrier, immune from liability? You can't have any control over the content.

We figured this out with the telephone company many decades ago, and the principle hasn't changed.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#236
post #132
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by extremism? I view net neutrality as the requirement to treat all bits equally regardless of source, which is kind of a binary one. I think as long as we are talking about the hardware infrastructure, (2) is a fundamental problem that cannot be fixed by adding competition, because it shares some common features with utilities like water, electricity, etc (making me believe internet access ought to…

"What do you mean by extremism? I view net neutrality as the requirement to treat all bits equally regardless of source, which is kind of a binary one." It should be possible for me to build some kind of public network, somewhere, for some purpose ... and dictate bits/traffic any way I see fit. Now maybe I can't do that with CATV because common carrier. And maybe I can't do that with public spectrum because public re…

I do agree with you, but just like how there is a difference between building pipes for a water park and building pipes for a water utility, there needs to be a line.

I don't know the exact answer to where that line is, but I truly believe it needs to be much more strict than it is right now.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#237
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Demand for Youtube and FB are so high and ubiquitous that pretty much any ISP will immediately cave in. Yep, Comcast better be careful lest I leave them for the 6mbps competitors I have as options in the backwater community I live in called Berkeley, CA. I utterly fucking loathe Comcast, and yet they get thousands of my dollars because of an unspoken of oligopoly among ISPs that has grown out of the tacit agreement t…

Does Sonic.net not provide service in Berkeley? Back when I lived in the Bay Area, I switched from Comcast purely because Sonic.net isn't an utterly loathsome company. Turns out with Sonic I didn't have to reboot my modem every other week either.

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Re: Keep the Internet Open

#238
We see the consequences of a non-open Internet every day where we work in Uganda. It is common there for people to have "social bundles" that only work for Facebook, WhatsApp, Twitter, etc. Our users believe they have Internet access but don't understand why data from our app is not syncing when Facebook is working. It's a large barrier for us and adds a huge moat for the incumbents. We're considering more integration over WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger so we too can benefit from the cheaper data but that only locks us into those platforms and strengthens their position.

Re: Keep the Internet Open

#240

Because of the massive amount of consolidation over the last few years, the death of Net Neutrality would be the best competitive moat imaginable for Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc. While all their CEOs will make faint noises in favor of Net Neutrality, SV outspends Wall Street 2:1 on lobbying[1], the goal of which is to cement monopoly status, not to make the world a better place. Most of it goes to Republicans. Thin…

Indeed, to keep a monopoly on services, there are large tech companies that could benefit as long as the ISPs don't get overly greedy where large companies will pay their way to better access to consumers. Zero rating is effectively the easiest way to have a company do this. T-Mobile semi-popularized the concept as being a 'pro for consumers' (great marketing spin, John Legere). While, I will admit freely, that T-Mobiles implementation of zero rating is not the most aggressive form, and so far t-mobile's been transparent for how any company can become part of it, at least that is my understanding talking to those in the industry (its just an email: Bingeon@t-mobile.com, and they are willing to work with you on it is my understanding). In the long run, this kind of thing becoming acceptable opens the doors to less than savory practices. Will t-mobile eventually turn this into a screw they can turn to get more money out of content providers? Who knows. Its not regulated, transparent, or an open process. IE. If you argument is using this to manage the network (by only allowing 720p video streams, for instance, when watching videos online), why would fair, transparent, open, and a reasonably determined cost not be part of that?

Zero rating as it gets implemented by comcast, for instance, is much more sinister.

Either way, they get to take us for a ride.

One thing I also find interesting:

The new FCC chairman is all about de-regulating. Yet, the one thing he is not advocating is de-regulating open access rules to public utility infrastructure, IE, as this wired article explains: https://www.wired.com/2013/07/we-need-to-stop-focusing-on-ju...

"The ‘open access’ term gets thrown around a lot as code for creating artificial competition among resellers of a monopoly service at government-controlled rates. There’s no better way to kill incentives for building out or upgrading new networks.

But ‘open access’ really means promoting easy, inexpensive and open access to publicly owned rights-of-way"

The FCC has the power to petition congress for the authority (and there are some legal experts who think the FCC already has the power to dictate this see here: https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-11-50A1.pd... also see the Telecommunications Act of 1996).

I have seen NO movement toward increasing competition by stripping away unreasonable local regulations on rights of way access by Ajit Pai. He not once ever proposed this, and nor since taking FCC chain, made it an agenda item to do just this. This would increase competition astronomically if the right of way access situation was to be sorted out and streamlined, for open access and implementing firm open access rules (like 30 day auto approvals for projects if the objecting party does not respond before that).

Though one might say, upon reading the telecom act of 1996 and say "Hey! it was suppose to give the authority!" well, it had one important caveat

However, the 1996 Act permits utilities to deny access where there is insufficient capacity and for reasons of safety, reliability or generally applicable engineering purposes

This gets abused, frankly, and the appeals process is rather non-existant and fighting it is very drawn out (companies sue each other over this clause all the time).

If he wants real competition, this would go a long way in doing the right thing.

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