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Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

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Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#111
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misrepresent me by saying I fetishised poverty. I did nothing of the sort. I merely said that a state of smug complacency is risible. Or are the 'cultured' so full of pomposity that mockery is considered threatening? That seems like narcissism to me.

>spending your time pondering how to make yourself 'cultured' is a nauseatingly bourgeois activity, ripe for satire when compared with the harder realities of life for the less well privileged. I haven't misrepresented you. You literally said that a 'bourgeois' activity has less value compared to "harder realities of life for the less well privileged". That's putting poverty on a pedestal. That's fetishizing it. No.…

For some reason I'm reminded of Gwyneth Paltrow and her macrobiotic diet. Oh to have a colon so pure!

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#112
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might say "gentle criticism" rather than insults, but the beginning and end of the letter do make it clear that he is specifically advising his brother: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/6408/6408-h/6408-h.htm#link2H... > You have only one failing, and the falseness of your position, and your unhappiness and your catarrh of the bowels are all due to it. That is your utter lack of culture. >You must drop your vanity, y…

disagree that this is gentle. If you assume that every bit of advice implies that his brother is the opposite it's pretty bad

Well, he prefaces it with "I think you are kind to the point of softness, magnanimous, unselfish, ready to share your last farthing; you have no envy nor hatred; you are simple-hearted, you pity men and beasts; you are trustful, without spite or guile, and do not remember evil.... You have a gift from above such as other people have not: you have talent."

Sounds like his brother probably satisfies at least 1, 2, and 3. That's why I say gentle; he says "you're a great guy, you have natural talent and the potential to be cultured, just need to work on your attitude and develop your talent".

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#113

I am an American living in Russia. When I was studying Russian I read a number of Chekhov's short stories and got a feel for who he was. I later came across one of his quotes: "В человеке должно быть все прекрасно: и лицо, и одежда, и душа, и мысли" (Everything in a person should be excellent: his face, his clothes, his soul and his ideas). I sometimes discussed this phrase with Russians, eventually coming to be beli…

Modern Russian [street] variation of "Everything in a person ..." sounds as : "В человеке всё должно быть прекрасно - и душа и джинсы" - "Everything in a human should be perfect, as his soul as his jeans".

That's why Russians are paying so much attention to their education/reading and what they wear :) This stuff is taught in school.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#114
post #58

I'm struck by how much this echoes Confucius and the Analects and how they define the so-called gentleman or noble man (not to be confused with nobleman, and translation is hard). Given how unlikely it is that Chekhov had exposure to either, it's incredible to observe the universality of these qualities considered admirable. If people haven't, do recommend checking out The Analects! Caveat: there are quite a few exce…

Is it unlikely that he had exposure to Confucius? Russia and China were bumping into each other before Chekhov's time, and a bit of Googling is turning up cases of Russian missionaries translating Chinese works to Russian in the early 1800s.

Was just a guess on a uniform prior :)

If you have specific evidence of Chekhov referencing Confucius (the similarities are so striking that either he came up with them independently, which was my original point, or he was inspired by Confucius, which should then leave traces) please do tell! That would be really cool.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#115
post #59

I notice this theme again and again in every "change yourself" book, show, class, lecture. Be it weight loss, improving mental health, curing addiction, becoming a better writer/photographer/programmer, the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself. Fighting the desire to snack, fighting the desire to lay on the couch instead of going to the gym, fighting the desire to veg and watch netflix instead of watchin…

> the theme all comes down to a battle against yourself

Perhaps "control" and "battle" are the wrong model. Some broad, general suggestions based on what experts have said:

Respect yourself: If you are doing something over and over again despite not wanting to, there probably is a good reason for it, a legitimate healthy need, even if the expression of that need is unhealthy. Respect that need and its priority as legitimate and serious. Find a healthy, productive way to address it. It should be no surprise that the response is unhealthy: Imagine if someone else had a real need and your response was to ignore it and abuse them constantly for acting on it; how would that person behave?

Know yourself: Know your strengths and limits; don't put yourself in position to fail and then abuse yourself for failing. Again, imagine you were someone else's manager, you knew their limitations, and yet you kept putting them in position to fail and then abused them over the results. That would be a horrible failure of management, not of the employee.

Have compassion for yourself. Like every human ever to live, you also will live your whole life with serious flaws.

Nurture yourself: Work together (so to speak) for change. That's how real change happens; that's how good parents, good teachers and mentors, and good managers accomplish things. Fighting with people just entrenches the problem.

....

That feels a little too ... bullsh*tty to post - loose, imprecise ideas with little serious foundation included; my apologies. But I'm not sure how to tighten it up, don't have links at my fingertips, and posting it seems better than not.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#116
post #7
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everything in a person should be excellent Probably nitpicking, but I'd translate "прекрасно" as "beautiful" here.

I think "exellent" is an excellent choice of the word (beautiful ≈ красиво).

Not really.

Excellent is closer to идеально. Both imply relative comparison (to others). Beautiful is an absolute characteristic, same as красиво, so it's a better fit here.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the actual list, it's a recipe to living a generally happy life. If I had to summarize the list, it'd look like this: 1. Let go of small things. 2. Have sympathy for the people around you. 3. Repay your debts. 4. Don't lie, don't brag, and don't gossip. 5. Don't disparage yourself to fish for pity. 6. Be humble. Let your talents prove themselves. 7. Spend time on the things that matter to you. 8. Long…

So very much like the Ten Commandments then, only with a veneer of coffee shop faux-intellectualism.

You sound like you're trying really hard to find something wrong with what Chekhov wrote. Why do you think it has a veneer of coffee shop faux-intellectualism?

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#118

I am an American living in Russia. When I was studying Russian I read a number of Chekhov's short stories and got a feel for who he was. I later came across one of his quotes: "В человеке должно быть все прекрасно: и лицо, и одежда, и душа, и мысли" (Everything in a person should be excellent: his face, his clothes, his soul and his ideas). I sometimes discussed this phrase with Russians, eventually coming to be beli…

The statue's proportions are somewhat like what you would see if you look at a person from below. As actual drunkard lying on the floor could see Chechov. Source: indigenous Tomsker. We like to joke about Checkov's words about Tomsk.

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#119
post #58

I'm struck by how much this echoes Confucius and the Analects and how they define the so-called gentleman or noble man (not to be confused with nobleman, and translation is hard). Given how unlikely it is that Chekhov had exposure to either, it's incredible to observe the universality of these qualities considered admirable. If people haven't, do recommend checking out The Analects! Caveat: there are quite a few exce…

Can you give some examples of those "statements on women that interpreted naïvely clearly contradict other statements on mothers?"

I've read bits and pieces of Analects, thought it was ok, but felt that is was very much reflective of the perspectives of the time. Most of it felt like stuff that was obvious and other stuff felt not applicable to the world today. IIRC there was some stuff about traveling abroad / being a good guest in a foreign country, and I did think that part was useful.

I don't really recall reading stuff about women though. I wouldn't expect an enlightened perspective from a man in that time period though, no matter how kind the interpretation. It wouldn't invalidate the whole work, it would just show that the author was wrong about at least one thing, which is not an issue (unless we're talking about holy books where it's not acceptable to acknowledge mistakes).

Re: Chekhov: “Cultured people must, in my opinion, satisfy the following conditions”

#120
post #3

I am an American living in Russia. When I was studying Russian I read a number of Chekhov's short stories and got a feel for who he was. I later came across one of his quotes: "В человеке должно быть все прекрасно: и лицо, и одежда, и душа, и мысли" (Everything in a person should be excellent: his face, his clothes, his soul and his ideas). I sometimes discussed this phrase with Russians, eventually coming to be beli…

> Everything in a person should be excellent Probably nitpicking, but I'd translate "прекрасно" as "beautiful" here.

I'd translate it as "wonderful".
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