We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen • Hacker News Board

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#141

Post by ethics_gradient » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

lucideer wrote: post #95

bambax wrote: post #79

While I agree with the gist of the article, I have a problem conflating Google and Facebook in the same evil bag. Facebook is the evilest of evil, not only for the reasons stated, but also because information entered into Facebook never comes out. You have to have an account on FB to see anything on the platform. That is contrary to everything the Web ever stood for. Since I don't have a Facebook account, most of my…

In aggregate, the article may be right in conflating Google and Facebook, as my own view on them is pretty much the polar opposite of yours. Facebook is oft-criticised for their "walled garden", but it is their walled-garden. Facebook is: - mostly opt-in (though admittedly there's a huge social pressure to do so for many people) - I can very easily choose what I do & don't share with Facebook and my set of connection…

I agree that Google is worse in most of the ways you noted. However, I would note that the choice of not using Facebook is a somewhat-arbitrary one, due to the incredibly strong network effect and the huge userbase.

Google is somewhat better in this regard - they're so huge because so many people use them, but in many cases you have options for not using Google, or most of their services. Or using them less intensively / intrusively than people tend to use Facebook.

Depends on the user, mostly. Both are quite detrimental to the liberty of users overall, I would say.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#142

Post by squarefoot » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

natoliniak wrote: post #130

squarefoot wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Google's removal of the discussions filter was a big blow to the openness of the web" This! With that filter I could name a product and find common people talking about it, now all I find is companies selling the product. This is getting even worse when searching political topics because from mixed people discussing the topic I now find only news sites or biased sources promoting their point.

You can use the query below (or something similar) to narrow results to include keywords found in popular discussion boards (modify it to suit your needs): "dell latitude" inurl:comments|question|forum|viewthread|showthread|viewtopic|showtopic|"index.php?topic" | intext:"answer"|"reading this topic"|"next thread"|"next topic"|"send private message"|"reply"

Clever trick. Thanks!

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#143

Post by VA3FXP » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 6:33 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #140

VA3FXP wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quote is going to be immortalized. It is succinct, and perfectly reflects a real problem with the human condition. Thank-you.

The problem with succinct and clever phrases is that they can be used to shut down discussion of important issues. It's such a great reply that people may, not wishing to appear to be one of these naive souls who romanticize a past that never existed, refrain from pointing out that it is possible to lose things from the past that did exist and were exceptionally valuable. It's even possible to have these things stole…

Touché.

I am in complete agreement with your comments regarding the open web.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#144

Post by forgottenpass » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 8:44 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #34

This is just unnecessarily divisive. Look, this is the way commerce works. Checks on corporate behavior come in two realms, legal and ethical. Companies will violate ethics if everybody else is doing it. Companies violate the law if they are the proverbial bad eggs. If unethical practices become normal, the thing to do is to get a law passed. It's the way this has always worked. Laws change the entire landscape of co…

This is just unnecessarily divisive.

If a change in law is your recommendation, I'd suggest that this is not unnecessary. Rallying public opinion is often a necessary precursor to legislation.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#145

Post by xkxx » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #79

While I agree with the gist of the article, I have a problem conflating Google and Facebook in the same evil bag. Facebook is the evilest of evil, not only for the reasons stated, but also because information entered into Facebook never comes out. You have to have an account on FB to see anything on the platform. That is contrary to everything the Web ever stood for. Since I don't have a Facebook account, most of my…

> Not only is Google Search is unparalleled

For me DuckDuckGo works pretty well. If I can't find something there, I always try to use Google, to no avail. It proves that DDG is as good as Google at least for my searches.

> one can still use Google Search completely anonymously

If you try to use it via Tor, you'll have to solve CAPTCHAs, not for every search, but still pretty often. It's annoying and not very anonymous-friendly. Sure, you can use Google Search anonymously, but Google does enough to discourage you doing it.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#146

Post by xkxx » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:13 PM UTC

hooch wrote: post #100

bicubic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> making it sound as if those companies knowingly stole or forced people to fork over data Both Google and Facebook are engaged in exactly those practices. Stolen and forced are apt adjectives to describe their behavior. Stolen like Whatsapp data after acquisition by Facebook, like contact lists, location history, voice recordings from your Android phone. Forced like Facebook constantly demanding you provide them you…

Living like Stallman is not so bad, actually. It's all relative :)

Have you tried it?

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#147

Post by xkxx » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #24

empath75 wrote: post #2

I've been thinking of closing my Facebook account, but I'd lose contact with so many friends and family. They don't use email or any kind of instant messenger any more, and nobody makes phone calls any more. If you're not on Facebook you might as well not exist.

I still exist without Facebook. The people in my life I care about know that they can email me (to a non-Gmail account). It's not that impossible to be "off the grid" so to speak. The vast majority of Facebook interaction I see is pretty banal anyway. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

> (to a non-Gmail account)

What email provider do you use?

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#148

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:26 PM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #24

empath75 wrote: post #2

I've been thinking of closing my Facebook account, but I'd lose contact with so many friends and family. They don't use email or any kind of instant messenger any more, and nobody makes phone calls any more. If you're not on Facebook you might as well not exist.

I still exist without Facebook. The people in my life I care about know that they can email me (to a non-Gmail account). It's not that impossible to be "off the grid" so to speak. The vast majority of Facebook interaction I see is pretty banal anyway. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything.

[deleted]

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#149

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #140

VA3FXP wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This quote is going to be immortalized. It is succinct, and perfectly reflects a real problem with the human condition. Thank-you.

The problem with succinct and clever phrases is that they can be used to shut down discussion of important issues. It's such a great reply that people may, not wishing to appear to be one of these naive souls who romanticize a past that never existed, refrain from pointing out that it is possible to lose things from the past that did exist and were exceptionally valuable. It's even possible to have these things stole…

The web is less open than it used to be, for some definitions of open.

The barriers to entry to the web nowadays are virtually zero. Anyone can get a free Wix or free WordPress site going in minutes. From their pocket computer no less!

Back when I was a lad, and access to the web was via a modem, the barriers were at least: have some technical knowledge and the right equipment.

Re: We didn’t lose control of the Web – it was stolen

#150

Post by pyre » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:41 PM UTC

beagle3 wrote: post #67

dovdovdov wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Slack, our team communication has never been better, I like Facebook (messenger) because it's a common platform for all my acquaintances. Are we forced to share anything (really) personal though?

By using either you disclose your network of friends, location, the content of your communication, and -- if you didn't take steps to counter it, essentially the majority of web pages you visit. All voluntarily. Stasi would be jealous.

Well, to some extent they could get a good deal of this information from being in bed with the phone company and the mail service. The difference nowadays is that making things digital has drastically reduced the cost of operating a surveillance dragnet (e.g. cost of copying / storage).