Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups • Hacker News Board

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#551

Post by timthelion » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:22 PM UTC

ptaipale wrote: post #511

gumby wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), Having lived on the east side of Berlin (post Wall!) I cannot forget that that wall was supposedly built to keep people out but of course it kept people in . I am Australian, and I have to admit the points based system does work there...but. I have lived longest in the USA where the chaos has been beneficial for the country, and thus for me. Aus…

The Berlin Wall was really about keeping people in. Make no mistake about it. It was erected as a response to losing too many people through emigration [0]. Can you say the same about U.S. border control? Hardly. There's a very big difference between a wall that keeps unwanted people out and a wall that keeps wanted (or everyone) in by force. In the latter case, even if you have whatever freedom you wish outside the…

> In the latter case, even if you have whatever freedom you wish outside the wall, you can have it. In the former, you cannot.

That is obviously and blatantly false. If the world turns hardcore nationalist, then it will be impossible for Americans to move elsewhere, because all countries will have strict imigration policies. How would you move to Mexico if Mexico doesn't allow for imigration? Where would you go?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#552

Post by gwern » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:25 PM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #526

gwern wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the basic premises of anti-immigrant policies is that you can somehow influence the ratio of "useful" vs "not-useful" immigrants. This is exactly what the study shows is not just possible but easy in screening by nationality. Think about US immigration statistics by country ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_Stat... ): you'll see lots of Central and South American countries. Now take a…

Nope, your argument does not negate the idea that those screening measures wouldn't turn away desirable immigrants. I also see that you are listing a lot of countries with very small populations and an even smaller number of legal immigrants. If they don't show up in start ups, that would be the first thing I'd check. Not their supposedly lower IQ or education, which I would reject in the case of some of these countr…

> Nope, your argument does not negate the idea that those screening measures wouldn't turn away desirable immigrants.

No one ever said that screening measure might not have false negatives. The only way to guarantee that no desirable immigrant is ever turned away is to never turn anyone away ever, since there's always a chance. This is not to say that immigration could not be reduced drastically with minimal effect on startup cofounders, based on the research in OP which is being cited for drastically different claims than it implies.

> I also see that you are listing a lot of countries with very small populations and an even smaller number of legal immigrants.

In my sarcastic aside, I listed countries by order of the WP entry; they may be small countries, but they have nevertheless managed to send an awful lot of people into the USA. Numbers is not their problem. And if you are referring to the list of startup founders, many of them coming from small countries (with even smaller immigration into the USA) only emphasizes the disparity in odds between countries...

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#553

Post by timthelion » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:28 PM UTC

old-gregg wrote: post #541

gumby wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the chaos in the immigration system in the US that benefits you? Sorry I was not clear. The immigration system is absurd and it appears that all the plans are to make it worse for the US (All the announcements I've seen are of enormous benefit to Europe, Canada, Australia, Taiwan, Singapore et al). It's a major liability to trying to do business in the US. I mean the general chaos of life in the USA. Day to…

> you just have to spend so much time on useless shit that you don't deal with in other advanced economies Just curious, can you provide some examples? (outside of healthcare, which is the well-known hell). Thanks!

One example is the very complex set of rules for specific professions in the US. There's no one-size fits all business licence as there is in some other countries. If you want to, for example, start a moving business you buy a truck, and then you have to register as a mover in CA, and if your client wants to move their stuff to WA you have to register as a mover in Oregon and Washington as well. You may then have to register into a special commercial fee system for using the highways commercially. This kind of thing really shocks the redneck crowd who thinks that if they've got a pickup truck then of course they can move that sofa for $20 bucks.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#554

Post by gozur88 » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:29 PM UTC

xapata wrote: post #462

gozur88 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant on your part, obviously. Once you start assigning new meanings to other people's words you can make them into any kind of people you want.

Not obvious at all. I thought we were sharing a frustration for the recent trend in politics to make implications rather than explicit statements. I didn't think I was assigning new meaning, but only exactly what Bannon intended. I can, obviously, never be certain I've understood him correctly, so I just make my best guess. It's reasonable to expect that different people will make different guesses. What is your inte…

>I didn't think I was assigning new meaning, but only exactly what Bannon intended. I can, obviously, never be certain I've understood him correctly, so I just make my best guess.

Why are you guessing at all? Why are you assuming he isn't saying what he means?

>What is your interpretation of Bannon's words?

What they mean in English.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#555

Post by eli_gottlieb » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:31 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #352

jacquesm wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it fit just fine until a few short weeks ago. Mexico was getting wealthier, people were more likely to return to Mexico. Ironically this whole border wall + move jobs back to the USA thing has made the chances of illegal immigration from Mexico to the USA for a given individual go up rather than down. As for who would make Mexico wealthy: that would not be the US government but market forces and corporations, t…

> As for who would make Mexico wealthy: that would not be the US government but market forces and corporations, the things that America has historically been such a huge proponent of. Market forces are merely a means to an end. The U.S. Government should only permit them to operate to the extent that has the effect of making the majority of Americans more prosperous (which it usually does). Do trade policies that hav…

Weren't you an anarcho-capitalist utopian these past few years? What caused the about face?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#556

Post by rgovind » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:36 PM UTC

Steeeve wrote: post #268

Wait a second. You can come to the US, start a company, employ yourself, and support your own h1-b?

i.e. you can be both investor and employee in the company. But you have to run payroll which means company must be generating money or be VC funded

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#557

Post by BenElgar » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:38 PM UTC

old-gregg wrote: post #541

gumby wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is the chaos in the immigration system in the US that benefits you? Sorry I was not clear. The immigration system is absurd and it appears that all the plans are to make it worse for the US (All the announcements I've seen are of enormous benefit to Europe, Canada, Australia, Taiwan, Singapore et al). It's a major liability to trying to do business in the US. I mean the general chaos of life in the USA. Day to…

> you just have to spend so much time on useless shit that you don't deal with in other advanced economies Just curious, can you provide some examples? (outside of healthcare, which is the well-known hell). Thanks!

For an example of the top of my head, take tax returns. In the UK the vast majority of people don't need to file one—your employer deducts the right amount each month from your salary and off you go. Moving to America I found I had to spend at least half a dozen hours trying to figure out what I had to do, eventually giving up and paying for a service to do it for me and am still unsure I filed correctly.

For another example, take getting a driver's license. In the UK you fill in a form online, they extract any other relevant details from your passport records and put in your credit card details and they send you a license within the week. It's a 15 minute process. In America I got to finding out I had to go to the DMV (and that I should go to the DMV in another city because it's somehow superior) and promptly gave up.

I know you said aside from healthcare, but even if you had the hypothetical best insurance available, with no co-pay or deductible, just keeping track of all of the arcane and opaque numbers, policies and restrictions is a huge administrative burden.

Now to be clear, I understand why some of these systems are the way they are and, in some cases, can see the necessity, but the fact remains that in almost any other developed nation there simply wouldn't be an equivalent administrative burden to just existing.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#558

Post by ctdonath » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:42 PM UTC

rat87 wrote: post #479

ctdonath wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. ETA: I married an immigrant. Stop the imputation of "xenophobia".

So did Trump Hell he married multiple immigrants (And used undocumented polish workers to build Trump tower) He is still xenophobic He also told Jed Bush not to speak Spanish in public while his wife is raising their child bilingual.

Apparently we have different definitions of the word "xenophobic". Conversation won't get far until that difference is resolved.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#559

Post by sanjeetsuhag » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:45 PM UTC

patrickg_zill wrote: post #548

dave_sullivan wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), You seem like a pretty reasonable guy, so I'm curious: how do you justify the cost of building and maintaining the wall? And what are we getting in return? "Fewer mexicans immigrating illegally"? For every dollar you pay in taxes, you want what % going to keeping illegal immigrants out? For me, I really couldn't care less, I'm fine with 0%. The…

It's statistically factual, at least in the USA, that illegal immigrants are more prone to crime, and that immigrant households are more likely to use welfare/EBT/etc. than native households. That is, illegals commit more crimes and are less economically productive vs. the existing population.

> illegal immigrants are more prone to crime

Source ?

Also, as compared to what ? Legal immigrants or existing population ?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#560

Post by timthelion » Mon, Mar 13, 2017, 11:45 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #98

bayesian_horse wrote: post #32

One of the basic premises of anti-immigrant policies is that you can somehow influence the ratio of "useful" vs "not-useful" immigrants. Apart from the idea of sorting people into useful and useless being inhumane, it also seems to be counterproductive. It looks like every kind of screening of immigrants will deter the more desirable ones, as far as that determination is possible on their arrival at all.

It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…

Your bio says: "Aside from living on a Caribbean island during crypto export controlled 1990s, I've lived on a tiny artificial platform in the North Sea, plus more reasonable places like London, Amsterdam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, and spent 6 months diving in Thailand."

So you've moved around a lot. But you want to make it harder for others to do so. It seems to me that you think you are better than others with your desire for a point based system. And your felon policy, should have made it hard for you to move around, given that you claim to have illegally exported crypto ;)