Live data from Hacker News

Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

blogs.wsj.com

351–360 of 701 posts

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#351
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can somehow influence the ratio of "useful" vs "not-useful" immigrants. I'm sure it's possible to do it, if you take a narrow enough view of 'usefulness', e.g. 'usefulness' = measurable economic productivity. You can screen out people with expensive preexisting medical conditions, people who cannot work, etc., and that will obviously raise the average productivity of immigrants. But it's immoral. Rich host coun…

> Rich host countries are poaching productive individuals while selecting against people who are most in need of help I'm not sure that "poaching" is the right word. The US isn't seeking out potential immigrants and trying to entice them to come here, but that's what "poaching" suggests to me. Rather, it's just trying to filter those who have already established on their own a desire to come here.

I don't know about the US. I know Canada has a history of running targeted ad campaigns in South Africa and elsewhere, to get doctors to immigrate (while simultaneously complaining about locally-trained doctors leaving to get better paid jobs in the US).

Not the best source but it's what I could find on Google:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/columnists/2007/02/05/the_et...

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Making Mexico wealthy. I think it would be great to for Mexico to be more prosperous so people wouldn't have to leave their families to come to the U.S. But you also have to ask yourself: does that fit with the purpose of the U.S.? Having a government necessarily means yoking people, stripping them of their natural autonomy using coercion and under the threat of violence. I'm by no means an anarchist, but the only…

Well, it fit just fine until a few short weeks ago. Mexico was getting wealthier, people were more likely to return to Mexico. Ironically this whole border wall + move jobs back to the USA thing has made the chances of illegal immigration from Mexico to the USA for a given individual go up rather than down. As for who would make Mexico wealthy: that would not be the US government but market forces and corporations, t…

> As for who would make Mexico wealthy: that would not be the US government but market forces and corporations, the things that America has historically been such a huge proponent of.

Market forces are merely a means to an end. The U.S. Government should only permit them to operate to the extent that has the effect of making the majority of Americans more prosperous (which it usually does). Do trade policies that have the effect of making Mexico richer have the effect of making the median American richer? I don't know the answer to that. Americans seem to think not.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#353
post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall") Walls going up are days of sadness. Walls broken down are days of joy. The thing to keep in mind here is that such walls built to keep others out can be used just as easily to keep the locals in (on either side).

Walls don't impact legal immigration. They only only impact the proportion of illegal immigrants that sneak across the border.

It would barely impact them. Impoverished people who voyage hundreds of miles through the desert in search of a better life are not going to be deterred by a wall. They'll dig under it, climb over it, or smash right through it if need be.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#354
post #10

Whenever I see "Immigration" in the title, i think anti-Trump and get sad. No one is trying to stop legal immigration. Tech companies are mad because they are cracking down on H1-B Visa abuse. This is not a bad thing.

Really? Than why so many leaked memos show that Bannon and Miller want to reduce family Visas for those already legally here? Why is Bannon and Miller's favorite novel a racist French book about Europe becoming less white? Why when Bannon was interviewed on radio he said he wanted to bring the numbers on legal immigration way down? You're fooling yourself if you think this is just about undocumented Mexicans, Muslims…

> Than why so many leaked memos show that Bannon and Miller want to reduce family Visas for those already legally here?

From http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/1/14773298/mer...:

"Reforming the immigration system to be more “merit-based” is predicated on the idea that some of these slots are going to the wrong immigrants — immigrants who don’t have as much to give the US as the US has to give them. Proponents point to Australia and Canada — places that don’t have the American tradition of family-based migration, and that deliberately select for immigrants who are likely to contribute economically and assimilate culturally from the moment they arrive. In these countries, having a family member who’s already a citizen doesn’t guarantee you a spot as an immigrant yourself — having an advanced degree, being fluent in the language, and being able to support yourself (or have a job waiting for you when you arrive) matter as much or more."

Yes, Australia and Canada.

> Why is Bannon and Miller's favorite novel a racist French book about Europe becoming less white?

I could not find the quote from Bannon or Miller saying that "Camp of the Saints is my favourite novel"? Where can I find this?

> Why when Bannon was interviewed on radio he said he wanted to bring the numbers on legal immigration way down?

See http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/2/2/14472404/ste...

He is talking about H1-B visa abuse, just as the OP says.

"They get into graduate schools, they can’t get engineering degrees, they can’t get into graduate schools because there are all these foreign students, when they come out, they can’t get a job."

NOTE: "Foreign students". You do realise that by addressing this problem, he is helping all American citizens - who are all different ethnicities.

> You're fooling yourself if you think this is just about undocumented Mexicans, Muslims, or H1-B abuse. There's way too much circumstantial rhetoric that's been said that indicates this is something more and we invite peril if we don't harshly Critique it.

You, my friend, are reading fake news.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#355
post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you under the mistaken impression that increasing wages paid would cause people to work those jobs? Has anyone actually tried paying $25 per hour plus benefits for strawberry picking? Let me guess, you're entirely consistent in your beliefs and likewise oppose the $15/hour minimum wage for fast food workers. Because after all, that would lead to runaway inflation.

> Has anyone actually tried paying $25 per hour plus benefits for strawberry picking? Yes. Actually here's one article about farmers offering $25/hr picking strawberries: http://komonews.com/news/local/local-berry-farmers-lament-la... Their crops are getting ruined because they can't get workers. I can't believe people don't understand how comfortable the average millennial is in this life, and how completely unneces…

> Yes. Actually here's one article about farmers offering $25/hr picking strawberries:

Sounds like Mexicans weren't willing to do it either. What changed from year to year? Clearly there's something else at play if they couldn't even get Mexicans to do it. The article doesn't mention that the farmer is exclusively hiring legal citizens, Washington State is ranked 15th for Hispanic population, and the farm is near a major metro area, so I don't buy the argument that there aren't enough Mexicans available either. It's clearly something else.

> Teenagers don't need $15/hour, as they should be at school. The head of a family household does.

Great, now you've just created an incentive to not hire anyone older than some particular age in a low-skill industry.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#356
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wouldn't be hard to have an immigration system which is biased toward useful vs. not useful. The question is: where do you want to have the cutoff? I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall"), combined with a transparent and straightforward points-based system for mainly immigrant visas. I'd eliminate the inherent racism in the current system (penalizing India and China vs. Equatorial Gui…

> I'm in favor of a solid border control regime (i.e. "build the wall") Walls going up are days of sadness. Walls broken down are days of joy. The thing to keep in mind here is that such walls built to keep others out can be used just as easily to keep the locals in (on either side).

I'm concerned about potentially blocking US persons from exiting with a wall, but without legal changes it wouldn't be a problem. Even with legal changes, you'd need to restrict a LOT of technology on the US side to keep people from forcibly exiting, and I'd feel morally OK with using force to escape a country.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#357
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Knowing that explicit white nationalism could be problematic, a white nationalist might speak in code. This is a terribly dishonest debating tactic.

Yes, it's quite frustrating to try to discuss topics when people won't speak clearly.

I meant on your part, obviously. Once you start assigning new meanings to other people's words you can make them into any kind of people you want.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#358
post #218

I'm appalled by the need for statistics showing how "useful" immigrants are. Combating xenophobia should be a moral issue, not a utilitarian one. I understand some people will not be swayed by moral arguments, but society doesn't seem to try anymore. Utilitarian arguments have become the default.

When merely being a person gives you rights to government-issued finite resources, it has to be a utilitarian argument.

You need to be a lawful permanent resident to qualify for any federal public benefits.

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More importantly, how can you not think that? Logically a Canadian is going to be culturally a better fit, financially better off, and more educated and skilled. It's got nothing to do with race or nationality, just a statement about the average Mexican vs the average Canadian. Don't throw logic out the window in service to liberal ideals.

The US already as plenty of people that "culturally fit better", are more educated, are skilled, etc. We don't have enough people that picks Strawberry crops in California or does home construction in suburbs. We literally don't have those people willing to do those jobs, which can cause runaway inflation. Immigration is not about adding more of the same. It's about filling holes in our economy and labor force. How m…

I'm not sure why strawberry pickers are always the example. Is there really a shortage? When I was a teenager, in the country, that was a common minimum wage job mostly done by 14 year olds. It really does suck, almost any job would be better, but I didn't think better jobs were more available now than the late 90s. If anything I would have expected more people to be in the job pool for picking now.

Reading you other replies, I'm not sure if I understand the perspective you're coming from, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'm curious. Do you consider yourself anti-union?

Re: Study: Immigrants Founded 51% of U.S. Billion-Dollar Startups

#360
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US already as plenty of people that "culturally fit better", are more educated, are skilled, etc. We don't have enough people that picks Strawberry crops in California or does home construction in suburbs. We literally don't have those people willing to do those jobs, which can cause runaway inflation. Immigration is not about adding more of the same. It's about filling holes in our economy and labor force. How m…

> We don't have enough people that picks Strawberry crops in California or does home construction in suburbs. We literally don't have those people willing to do those jobs, which can cause runaway inflation Then increase the wage paid. You're literally arguing for a slave-wage underclass.

Not possible. Without cheap labor that kind of work would either move off shore to where labor is cheaper, or it'd be automated.

My father lives in rural Alabama and is a proud red neck. But he's a transplant and a little less provincial than many native Alabamians. I visited him a few years ago and noted how many Mexicans and Central Americans had moved into the area, starting from basically none 20 years ago.

Most of southern Alabama and the Florida Panhandle is timber land, much of it owned by paper companies. As he explained it to me, at some point the locals became averse to planting new trees. It's back-breaking manual labor. Immigrants filled in the gaps until at some [inflection] point the work all of sudden became "Mexican work", which pretty much guaranteed no white or black native would ever work it again no matter the wage. In a very short timeframe you saw a large influx of Mexicans and Central Americans as the baton was passed from poor whites to poor immigrants. It was to my mind something of an oddity in the rural Deep South, at least since the last influx of Scottish and Irish a hundred-plus years ago.

If the immigrants weren't available, I have no doubt that the paper companies would have turned to automation. The machines they operate to harvest trees are marvels. A machine for planting saplings probably isn't that difficult; indeed, it probably already exists. Doubtless the days of manual sapling planting are already numbered. Nonetheless, the influx of immigrants was a small economic boon that the locals would have appreciated were it not for the typical racist and nativist sentiments almost universally held.

As my father put it, it's absolutely ridiculous that they look down on hard-working immigrants doing the work that they recently once performed but now feel themselves too good to do. To be clear, the unemployment rate in that area is much higher than the national rate, and always has been. But irony of ironies, the social safety net (such as it is in Alabama) provides just enough comfort that poor whites can get by without having to do such work. Mind you, "get by" is still incredibly impoverished, but in that neck of the woods expectations are much lower than most of the rest of the country.

Anyhow, I don't mean to argue with the notion that immigration has historically been used to suppress wages, and that it can contribute to greater income inequality. On the whole I agree with that--it historically has, even though I don't think it's a necessary outcome of immigration. But higher wages isn't always an answer. There are structural and cultural reasons that act as a barrier to natives (especially white natives) performing certain tasks, particularly in historically poor areas where both structural and cultural influences are exaggerated.

That said, maybe automation in this case would have been better than supplementing the unskilled labor pool. Maybe the wages paid to a few skilled machine operators would have been better for the community than the low wages paid to a large number of new manual laborers. It's all a very complex subject. What is certain is that there was no third alternative; higher wages for the manual labor was never gonna happen.

Post reply on HN