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Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

theintercept.com

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Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#91

Post by k-mcgrady »

youdontknowtho wrote: post #74
k-mcgrady wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> You have to deny them victories, even on issues that you support. It sucks but the right has outsized influence over the country because of party discipline like I've just described. This attitude is the reason politics is fucked. Vote based on issues, not party bullshit. If a party is good on one issue you support and bad on every other issue obviously they won't get your support but voting based on a party and n…

I would say that the reason politics is fucked is that one party is an apocalyptic cult. The Republicans have given up on governance. Change is not possible when one party is willing to defy any norms. I wish it wasn't that way, but unless the right wing is broken as a political block, nothing is possible...

Your attitude is the problem. The other party is not 'an apocalyptic cult'. It's a different set of ideas to your own that's supported by about half the voters in your country. I'm not American but I say this as someone who's own views are pretty much opposite of everything the GOP stands for (I consider even the Democratic party in the US right wing). Demonising the other side gets you nowhere - it makes you look like the asshole, not them.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#92

Post by ak4g »

grandalf wrote: post #42
andy_ppp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably that he was running for president and wanted to appear on the side of the security services? Then when in office it clearly must be a useful tool to start build profiles of everyone and be able to mine their activities.

Exactly. I think it also underscores Obama's unprincipled, opportunistic nature. This is not a criticism of Obama, I think it applies to all presidents, and likely most elected officials worldwide.

Pragmatism is a principle.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#93

Post by youdontknowtho »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #91
youdontknowtho wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that the reason politics is fucked is that one party is an apocalyptic cult. The Republicans have given up on governance. Change is not possible when one party is willing to defy any norms. I wish it wasn't that way, but unless the right wing is broken as a political block, nothing is possible...

Your attitude is the problem. The other party is not 'an apocalyptic cult'. It's a different set of ideas to your own that's supported by about half the voters in your country. I'm not American but I say this as someone who's own views are pretty much opposite of everything the GOP stands for (I consider even the Democratic party in the US right wing). Demonising the other side gets you nowhere - it makes you look li…

Wow. Have you not been paying attention? They actively portray liberals and Democrats as un-American all the time. Every democratic president or majority is illegitimate. They've actively stoked racial fears my entire life. They are opposed to critical thinking... you think that last one is hyperbole, except it isn't. The Texas republican party tried to add opposition to teaching kids critical thinking to their official platform in 2012. I wouldn't want to come across like an asshole, though. The other side denies science and started the Iraq war. But I would want to come off as harsh, though...

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#94

Post by anigbrowl »

exabrial wrote: post #2

My opinion on hn was unpopular when I spoke out against Apple during the San Bernardino affair, because the FBI seemed to have the proper DOJ signoff and I think the motivation was obvious. However this is unacceptable. We are a society of laws, and one of them is due process. Spying likely started during the Bush years, and Obama somehow escaped scrutiny for continuing the program (even with Snowden leaks). Hopefull…

Spying likely started during the Bush years

It got worse during the Bush administration, but government surveillance isn't a new thing.

Hopefully it finally gets shut down during the Trump administration

Not sure if serious

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#95

Post by grandalf »

ak4g wrote: post #92
grandalf wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I think it also underscores Obama's unprincipled, opportunistic nature. This is not a criticism of Obama, I think it applies to all presidents, and likely most elected officials worldwide.

Pragmatism is a principle.

> Pragmatism is a principle.

Sure, but toward what end? Himself being elected? Surely most politicians are of the opinion that simply by having their butt in the chair in the office, good has been done. This sort of reasoning is considered sociopathic in most other contexts.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#96

Post by datatan »

youdontknowtho wrote: post #87
datatan wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this right here is why reasonable debate has died in the world today. Put your country before your party or you're damned to lose both.

Great. Another half thought out cliché. That really helps. Thanks. Meanwhile the Republicans have been focused and disciplined for decades on policies that screw everyone but a few. The democrats are corrupt, but you can work with corrupt. The republicans have a well financed ideology machine that polices itself for dissention. Hopefully your trite cliché will disarm them and convince them that your aren't a pointy h…

You're completely hopeless. Grow up and stop acting like a petulant stuck up spoiled little brat.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#97

Post by cmiles74 »

yellow_viper wrote: post #77
grandalf wrote: post #43

While this article offers the clearest presentation of the issue I've seen to date, I think the key point (which the article points out halfway in) is that the truth of Trump's claim that he was wiretapped does not depend on the presence or absence of a FISA warrant. The system is designed to be used without warrant, so those harping on the detail of whether or not a warrant existed that had Trump in scope are not fo…

I've not really been following it but isn't one of the main arguments that Obama would've had to have sign any FISA warrant?

My understanding is that "listening" to communication between Trump and a foreign national would not require a FISA warrant. I say "listening" because, I believe, all communications with foreign nationals are recorded but only some are actually listened to by actual people.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#98

Post by anigbrowl »

rbg246 wrote: post #48
willstrafach wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this brought up a lot but do not see how it would be an issue. This is part of the job of an intelligence agency. Something often ignored: The intelligence agencies of other countries are likely to be doing the same thing. It has already been shown that BND and GCHQ engage in similar behavior with regards to upstream and satellite signals interception, but it seems foolish to assume that other countries are no…

No i don't think it is the job of an intelligence agency to spy on the rest of the world's citizens and i think its a terrible idea to normalise this behaviour as such or to somehow make it sound ethical. The everyone else is doing it defence does not change the unethical nature of the action.

Yes it is. Otherwise you're putting yourself at a strategic disadvantage. It's an inevitable outcome of the technology being available. We have great weather satellites now partly because knowing the weather and observing agriculture in other countries makes us economically competitive.

If a technology exists it's going to be used, within the normal variations of supply and demand. You might prefer to abstain from using a particular technology, but there's also the possibility that it will get used on you. From a governmental perspective, a country has a requirement to be as aware of its political environment as it can for the sake of its citizens' safety.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#99

Post by willstrafach »

mgamache wrote: post #5

The problem with the press coverage of this topic is a lack of personalization. What does the government know about me and why is that important? I think most US citizens would be shocked to learn that most of our personal information is accessible without a warrant. (phone records / bank account / email / web history / phone location data / Car location / Purchase history / Facebook etc....). Also, how much the gove…

> I think most US citizens would be shocked to learn that most of our personal information is accessible without a warrant. (phone records / bank account / email / web history / phone location data / Car location / Purchase history / Facebook etc....).

They would probably be shocked if they did learn that, but there is no evidence for any of those besides phone records prior to 2015. Thankfully (after 2013 leaks), the USA Freedom Act was enacted in response to the "metadata" versus "data" interpretation, so now your phone records (Call Detail Records) will require a warrant if you are a US Person.

Re: Rand Paul: NSA Routinely Monitors Americans’ Communications Without Warrants

#100

Post by k-mcgrady »

willstrafach wrote: post #18
Darthy wrote: post #8

Of course the other 7.2 billion people in the world are also routinely monitored, but since this is an action on foreign territory, these 7.2 billion people have no recourse against this practice.

I hear this brought up a lot but do not see how it would be an issue. This is part of the job of an intelligence agency. Something often ignored: The intelligence agencies of other countries are likely to be doing the same thing. It has already been shown that BND and GCHQ engage in similar behavior with regards to upstream and satellite signals interception, but it seems foolish to assume that other countries are no…

>> I hear this brought up a lot but do not see how it would be an issue.

Because it's a massive human rights violation. Just because the agencies job is to gather intelligence doesn't mean it can trod all over the rights of non-US citizens.

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