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Scotland to seek second independence referendum

bbc.com

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Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#191

Post by daleharvey »

Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

The EU have already shown to be very amenable to an independent Scotland joining the EU in a timely manner (https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/eu-officials-are-discussi...). The process will be clarified however I dont think either side expect Scotland to get left in the lurch here

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#192

Post by philipov »

icu wrote: post #182
philipov wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 200 year-old idea that democracy means majority rules is rather naive. Naive in the sense that it assumes a simplistic model of political dynamics where every voter is an independent agent, and this assumption has not stood up well to history. The impact of political movements and demogogues, as well as economic coercion of the working classes, has shown that it is in fact possible for a democracy to be controlle…

Hi philipov... I would be really interested to hear your proposed solution.

I think it'll take many changes along the lines of: a constitutional convention to patch holes in the bill of rights; restoring financial independence to states so they can act as a check on the power of the national government; and universal basic income to eliminate financial coercion of the electorate. But I'm not convinced that will work, or even that it's possible. There are serious practical and political barriers. I think the existence of private institutions that are "too big to fail" is a very dangerous situation to be in. On the other hand, it's not clear how it's possible to prevent our political process from being captured by special interests while also avoiding descent into tyranny of a different form.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#193

Post by pjc50 »

sambeau wrote: post #146
Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

The economics are very disputable - the UK doesn't do regional apportionment of tax collection other than (just now) income tax, so not everyone believes the GERS number of £9bn.

And now it's even more disputable with Brexit: what farm subsidies will Scotland recieve, for example? What's the future cuts scenario for the UK? What happens if the rUK starts mass deportation of EU nationals? Parts of England are a few Daily Mail stories away from burning down Polish or Pakistani corner shops.

The UK had its opportunity to choose inclusivity and openness, and instead England voted for reactionary panic. I think it's hard to underestimate how much work the SNP have done in declaring ethno-nationalism and anti-immigrant sentiment unacceptable, and pushing those sentiments to the margins in Scotland despite the media.

(English-born Edinburgh resident SNP member here, btw)

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#194

Post by ceejayoz »

dagenleg wrote: post #190
pjc50 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention Gibraltar - everyone's overlooked this tiny rock, but Gibraltar is entirely dependent on EU freedom of movement and voted very heavily remain. It's not a coincidence that there was a Gibraltar diplomatic mission to the SNP conference, although I'm not entirely clear what they wanted other than solidarity against Brexit. Maybe Spain would let in Scotland and claim Gibraltar as their own?

Why would they claim it as their own if the population is not Spanish?

Short version: look at a map.

Long version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#195

Post by JMCQ87 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #100

Disclaimer: I'm English. One can hardly blame them. I was a unionist during the first referendum simply because I thought we were stronger together and felt that the Scottish made the UK as a whole more liberal (which, to be clear, is a GOOD thing). But after Brexit one cannot blame or criticise them for wanting to leave. I want to leave too! If their choice is being part of a fairly progressive EU or a conservative/…

"My only concern for Scotland is that they wouldn't be able to gain (re-gain?) EU membership then would be left out on their own for many years."

Why? How?

Scotland would easily fulfill the requirements to join pretty much right away and the EU needs good news and would be able to sell that as something positive, so they have clear incentives to make it happen ASAP. Scotland also would be a net contributing country.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#196

Post by sambeau »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #168
sambeau wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

>Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. // This may be an indication of the problem. To my view your opener should be "I'm a child of British parents, born in Britain and grew…

I would have but that would have made things very confusing: I feel 100% British. My immediate family is scattered around the UK our forefathers were scattered throughout the British Isles—one half of the family was Irish. Even my English parents have Scottish blood somewhere down the line.

Even worse for me, I'm an internationalist and I felt very proud to be part of the EU for many of the same reasons I felt proud to be part of the UK: civic nationalism. The UK was the worlds most successful civic nation built on mutualism between a number of ethnic countries. To break up on ethnic borders and return to tribalism is heartbreaking.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#197

Post by alistairSH »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #168
sambeau wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

>Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. // This may be an indication of the problem. To my view your opener should be "I'm a child of British parents, born in Britain and grew…

Whilst that doesn't seem to be the case in other parts of the world [corrections?]

Some (many?) Americans would describe themselves as hailing from a specific state or city, not the nation.

Personally, when traveling abroad, if asked where I'm from, I generally say "Washington DC", not "the US".

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#198

Post by diakritikal »

neverminder wrote: post #130

I see this as a lose-lose scenario. If Scotland votes to split - it is effectively the end of UK as we've come to know it for a very long time. Fracturing is almost always a bad idea and bigger countries almost always do better than the smaller ones. If they vote to remain that will be bad as well, because it will embolden the politicians (tories in this specific case) that they can get away with anything (breaking u…

> Fracturing is almost always a bad idea and bigger countries almost always do better than the smaller ones.

This is demonstrably false: roughly half of the top ten countries ranked by standard of living and quality of life are small European nations about the same size as Scotland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev...

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#199

Post by ruairidhwm »

vixen99 wrote: post #136
timthelion wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is SNP racist? I honestly don't know. But it seems staying in Europe would suggest a pro-imigrant stance.

Last I heard, Scotland would have to join the queue of applicants to be considered as a new EU member and no one in Brussels (definitely anti-nationalistic) wanted to encourage Scotland in this move. Spain would undoubtedly veto this given their strong stance against Catalan independence. They could be out in the cold. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/10/independent...

Commented a few times on the Catalan point but I don't think it's as big an issue as it's made out to be.

Rajoy will likely follow the direction set by the EC and also, Catalonia is a different situation to Scotland. The former is a region of Spain whereas Scotland is already a sovereign entity and would only be withdrawing from the Act of Union, not seceding from a country.

Edit: Also, it's already a choice between 100% being out of the EU if we stay in the UK, or at least having a shot of joining the EU which could be more likely in the backdrop of Brexit negotiation.

Re: Scotland to seek second independence referendum

#200

Post by sambeau »

Gravityloss wrote: post #185
sambeau wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm a child of English parents who was born in Wales but grew up in Scotland. I have Scottish and English children, in-laws and cousins. I have a family home in Scotland but I currently live in England. My children live in England and Scotland. Some of us live in Italy. What a fucking mess of a total fucking disaster. None of this needed to happen and it's a total nightmare for me and my family. If this g…

Doesn't Scotland get a lot of money from oil and gas?

Not any more—they are currently running at a net loss. the rest of the UK are subsidising them to be decommissioned and for staff to be made redundant.
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