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I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

theguardian.com

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Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#191

Post by [deleted] »

nils-m-holm wrote: post #64
navs wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can experience a better web. It's not easy though. You'll need to give up a lot. I turn off javascript in Firefox (must it really be done through about:config?). A lot of websites work and I appreciate those sites even more. Gmail still offering a HTML version for example. Then there are those that don't like Youtube. I've had to effectively give it up or find a workaround like youtube-dl and mpv. What does suck…

I have JS off 99% of the time and I don't feel that I give up a lot! Rather the opposite: Whenever I see something interesting here on HN or somewhere else and the site wants me to turn on JS, I realize that the subject may not be that interesting at all and just close the tab. Big time-saver! Win-win. :)

[deleted]

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#192

Post by eeZah7Ux »

krapp wrote: post #104
garrettspringer wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree completely with the need of a new web. The bad information all across the web is gimmicky and flashy click bait is everywhere. Many people are becoming weary and desensitized to everything out there. We need to create a clean and simple, no bs web where information is clear and reliable. Wikipedia I think is a small picture of what it could look like. Especially if better monitors are enforced.

> The bad information all across the web is gimmicky and flashy click bait is everywhere. That's the price you pay for a web that isn't controlled entirely by governments or the media. The alternative is some service like Facebook determining what the truth is on your behalf, and you becoming nothing more than a pig feeding at their trough. People cite disinformation, bad information and "fake news" as evidence that…

>> The bad information all across the web is gimmicky and flashy click bait is everywhere. > That's the price you pay for a web that isn't controlled entirely by governments or the media.

My N=1 anectada seem to show the opposite:

More trustable correlates with no gimmicks and ads - Wikipedia, academic articles, expert's and organization's blogs, sometimes even HN.

Less trustable correlates with flashy - average online news, facebook & co.

(as I said, N=1, bare with me)

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#193

Post by eeZah7Ux »

pdimitar wrote: post #114

As much as I'd love to help projects like IPFS (for example), truth is that most people simply don't care and are entirely clueless on the impact of the continued centralization and surveillance of the Internet on their lives. Sitting with random people on a table, they giggle and smirk saying "I've got nothing to hide, you're too paranoid, bro, cheer up!" and I quickly give up. They have zero idea about how much inf…

@pdimitar - forgive the shameless plug but you might want to contribute to FreedomBox:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreedomBox

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#194

Post by eeZah7Ux »

Drumlin wrote: post #99
fiatjaf wrote: post #70

Does anyone else see as problem that web browsers are getting so feature-rich? That means that if anyone wants to write a new web browser he won't be able to.

It's called technical 'progress' - as technology progresses, you need bigger and more specialised teams of technicians. It reaches a point where huge entities like governments and corporates are the only groups with enough resources to compete. It happens everywhere... a constant drive to improve by building on top of layers and layers of abstraction - to the point where even the experts give up and view it as, well,…

Bloat is harshly progress.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#195

Post by ar0 »

traviscj wrote: post #188
laumars wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still have adverts on style free sites: Then there's paid for promotional content, which is one of the current trends on the web at the moment anyway. As long as information can be rendered then adverts can be included.

Trivial to defraud.

Only if you see the current "pay-per-click" model as inevitable. In fact, for a long time advertisers were very happy to just pay for a certain space on a newspaper page, without even knowing how many people would actually look at this page. Many advertisers still pay for space where they have no precise figure on how many people will ever see their ad (billboards, TV, radio).

Granted, I think such a world on the web would be difficult for all the tiny blogs that earn (usually very little) money through ad networks, where the advertiser has no idea on which page their ads will show up. But for larger sites, the "fraud" issue doesn't arise as much (because they have a reputation to lose) and you might also just pay for being visible there. The Deck is pretty succesful in their niche with this model and I am sure for brands like the New York Times it would also work well.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#196

Post by colmvp »

scholia wrote: post #151
Razengan wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opinion. I mean we tell kids to be wary of strangers, but we can't assign a policeman to every stranger. Easier to teach people that they can be deceived or that bad things can happen, than to prevent any deception or bad thing from ever occurring.

How do you cope with the fact that a large slice of the population seeks out bad things and refuses good things? The obvious examples are US news sources such as Fox News, Breitbart and Infowars [1]. However, it could also apply to fast food eating habits. [1] http://uk.businessinsider.com/conservative-media-trump-drudg...

I don't know how to reconcile this.

On the one hand, I believe information and speech should be mostly unfiltered. If people want to spread information that denies the moon landing or climate change, or extols the existence of teapots revolving about the sun, by all means. I'd rather know who they are and allow them to publicly exercise their ignorance. I assume the public would help cause a correction of the zeitgeist.

On the other hand, the fact is that some people become deeply misinformed and do things against their own interests (e.g. voting for a candidate who promises to undo systems that benefit the voter), which can effect all of us. To spare us from going into the rabbit hole of a party politics, I'll just say I read a recent interview with a voter who wants to get rid of x, even though x in particular crucially provides them a life-saving benefit of y, which they want to keep. How does that even make sense? You delve deeper, and realize that some individuals just listen to the mantra of x being advertised as a terrible thing by certain media and public figures, which is easier to understand than to go into the details as to how specifically it's good and how it specifically could be improved upon.

I'd also add technology, like the internet and smartphones, is affecting our behavior far faster than we're aware and in some ways, I think we need to acknowledge our vulnerability. When media companies or groups of websites can cheaply spread misinformation, it is VERY HARD to combat it, because good information takes time to produce and interpret.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#197

Post by fegu »

Kiro wrote: post #177
ThePhysicist wrote: post #80

Surprised that no one mentioned the new EU data protection directive, which goes a long way to fix the first issue mentioned in the article, the loss of control over our personal data (only for users in Europe though). I studied it in detail as I work in data analysis and consult companies on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best laws produced by the EU so far: It gives users a multitude of rights such as…

> You also have the right to demand the deletion of your personal data How does it work with data you're legally required to keep? E.g. for tax reasons.

"Dear Mr tax man. I request that you delete me."

Financial institutions and the government are exempt for "necessary information".

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#198

Post by treehau5_ »

jsilence wrote: post #153
ethbro wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet also has to make money at some point, which means there's usually a corporate entity in the chain, one whose money (for better or worse) eventually touches Western banks. So yes, the Internet never forgets (things it can make a buck off of).

Actually no. Saying the internet needs to make money is just as wrong as saying the roads need to make money. The net is just an infrastructure that has to be maintained and paiyd for. "Making money" is absolutely not a neccessety.

Ok, we are taxed for the roads and there are some roads that do require you to pay such as toll lanes. Think of Google and facebook as the restaurants and gas stations along the way.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#199

Post by zigzigzag »

zackbloom wrote: post #113
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see this getting better. In fact, I think the next big trick in web browsers will be to embed a full-blown GUI widget toolkit, so you can run what would effectively be a Visual Basic 6.0-type program, directly in the browser, allowing you to bypass all the HTML5/CSS/JS layers we slather on top of whatever framework we're using to make it approach the same UX as a desktop app. It's going to take even more band…

I think you're dead wrong about this. Desktop developers have been thinking for decades all the web needs is a more-desktop-like environment. The general conclusion of web developers is that they like html, CSS and JavaScript and want them to improve, not disappear. Many people see them as the evolution of GUI development, not anything to be removed.

Only web developers that have never actually written desktop apps think that in my experience. The prevalence of hacks, frameworks and layers that try to make the web stack marginally less terrible suggest that no, they don't like html, css and javascript - they deal with them because they have no other choice and it's all they've ever known.

Just take SASS as an example. Why does it exist?

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#200

Post by galvin »

ben_jones wrote: post #181
ThePhysicist wrote: post #80

Surprised that no one mentioned the new EU data protection directive, which goes a long way to fix the first issue mentioned in the article, the loss of control over our personal data (only for users in Europe though). I studied it in detail as I work in data analysis and consult companies on this, and I honestly think it is one of the best laws produced by the EU so far: It gives users a multitude of rights such as…

People often joke about the EU being toothless don't they? What penalties exist, as presumably their is a grace period to this that gives companies the time to build the systems in order to respect it? I feel like most small companies will find a way to skirt (or ignore) this as such systems could likely match the complexity of their products themselves..

Small businesses don't need to build complex systems to respect the law. If someone wants their data they can ask for it by email. The business can then manually gather the data from their databases and send it as a ZIP, PDF or whatever.

You can worry about building a system when it makes financial sense compared to the time spent manually dealing with data requests.

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