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Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

theatlantic.com

51–60 of 149 posts

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#51

- If you do primarily do work that involves making decisions about data structures and algorithms, then you might be an engineer. - If you primarily do the work of figuring out how to make business processes scale using software (and then implementing those ideas) then you might be a developer. - If you primarily implement tickets then you might be a programmer or coder. The idea of calling everyone who writes softwa…

Following this logic, anyone who manages engineers is a developer.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#52
post #30

I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

> This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

Software is going to be regulated, licensed, and unionized within the next ten years. The main reason it's not currently is because the best practices have historically changed every couple years due to Moore's Law, but there is about to be an extended slowdown that will give the industry the time it needs to get its act together.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#53

I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…

"I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way"

The original linked article was written by someone who's never engineered anything and clearly has no social or cultural connection with any engineers, but I can see in one line that you and I are at least partially on the same page about what engineering is, which is not much of an endorsement for the article.

The critical difference between science, engineering, and art/craft is engineering involves highly predictable well trodden ground where simulation always corresponds to measured reality. The predictive process is complicated and takes a long time and a lot of effort to learn and ingrain. The aesthetics and tradition don't matter as much (or at all) compared to the predictable performance and predictable cost. That's engineering.

The difference between a science and engineering is an engineers output is optimized to minimal cost yet fits a predictable yet variable safety envelope. That column will not buckle with 99.999% odds over the lifetime of the building if built to commercial standards and my specs. Science is much less predictable and its criteria for prediction is much lower and generally not "safety of life" related and tends to be extremely abstract. Is that theoretical cosmological model interesting and not provably invalid? OK publish. Does that biomedical pharma experiment have more than 2 sigma of abstract statistical significance or whatever the statistical flavor is for pharma research today? OK publish. Science can of course eventually turn into engineering... A lot of chemeng make a lot of money turning lab bench scale processes into factory scale processes, they are engineers because they understand and predict scalability, unlike computer scientists who famously do not.

The difference between craft/art and engineering is again safety of life and predictability but in craft/art you don't care about optimizing cost and safety as primary criteria. Does that custom bookcase have nice proportions? Is the wood grain clear? Is the stain too dark or too light or just right? Sometimes craftsmen such as framing carpenters need help from an engineer for a wide beam or similar weirdness but most of craft/art boils down to "grandpa put wall studs on 16 inch centers so I will too". Building codes for the building trades are written in human blood, not calculus math, for example. Somebody got electrocuted doing that, gets a line in the NEC or building code, we'd rather figure out the size of that weird beam using math rather than seeing if it collapses is structural engineering.

Very few people write code in an engineering fashion where the entire process is predictable and heavily testable against reality and human lives depend upon it. Some embedded stuff like PID controllers in factories or anti-lock brakes are like that. Your average web framework CRUD app, not so much, who knows what it'll do, and when it fails thousands will not die in the crash/collapse.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#55
post #25

My engineering school deliver engineers diploma certified by the Engineering Titles Commission, which is the only thing in France able to allow a school to make engineers out of its students. Thank you goodbye, do not make generalizations from how it is in your country.

It's almost the same in Quebec and I believe everywhere in Canada. Thanks for making this point clear!

That is exactly right. I'm a software engineer in Quebec. I have a degree in software engineering from an engineering school.

I even have the option to have a license at which point I could call myself a profesionnal engineer. This is the same in other Canadian provinces but the engineering license is regulated at the provincial level so there are a few diffenrences.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#56
In France, only certified school can deliver engineer degrees, it's a symbol of a high standard of competence and quality. They are required to teach core engineering classes and other topics (biomechanics, signal processing, management, neuroscience...), industry experts also have to come and teach. One of their goal is to teach the students how to analyze a problem from different angles.

We learn a lot more beside software engineering.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#57
post #30

I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

OTOH, the same principles behind civil engineering apply today and 10 years in the future, which means it can be regulated. Just think what this would mean for software, taking into account the iPhone is 10 years old.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#58

If mechanical engineers were unregulated and built unreliable cars, they would still be mechanical engineers. If doctors weren't a licensed profession, they would still be doctors. If barbers didn't need a certification, they would still be barbers. Defining an "engineer" based on how much regulation they must follow is kind of ridiculous. It's putting the cart before the horse. Which is not to say that the software…

Funny, the first MDs were the town barbers.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#59

This article feels painfully misinformed. I am a brother of Theta Tau, the professional engineering fraternity. Many of my brothers are certified professional engineers (FE, PE, etc.) I graduated with a dual-major in CS/Math. I strongly disagree with this assertion that failures in tech make us undeserving of the moniker 'engineer'. Software systems are inherently complex, and we have built incredible testing tools,…

> Additionally, the tech industry, in my opinion, innovates at a significantly faster pace than the licensed engineering disciplines. Perhaps these are correlated in some way.

I think you're right. Regulation stifles innovation.

Even in a narrow sense, thinking software alone, everyone knows the saying "Standard library is where modules go to die", meaning that there are stricter requirements to make it to the standard library in the first place and stricter still to update them once they've made it in.

Re: Programmers should not call themselves engineers (2015)

#60
post #30

I call myself a Software Engineer specifically because I see it as different to being a programmer. I don't just write code, I try to solve problems in a rigorous and maintainable way, while being aware of the wider implications of my work to the business, our customers, and anyone else who might be affected by it. Sure we don't have the same regulation as civil engineers, but I try to do my work in the same spirit.…

This misses the point that all other types of engineering are regulated and licensed.

We have regulations. I deal with the data protection act, if you use medical records there's lots of regulation around that. I'd argue that there's plenty of engineering that doesn't have regulation as well.

I think engineering is less about adhering to regulations, and more about solving problems in a wider context.

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