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I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

theguardian.com

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Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#41

Post by shakna »

actuallyalys wrote: post #36
shakna wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Static site generators are an interesting case, which can go either way. Because the site is static, but the creator still wants to be interactive, you tend to get a lot of JavaScript dependencies that fire off a bunch of 3rd party requests instead. Form handling, comments, user profiles and the like, along with the usual analytics and ads. The resulting mess can be much heavier.

That's a good point, although there are many static site generator and theme combinations that don't have that problem, either by not being interactive or by limiting the interactivity to when the creator is editing locally.

Indeed. They can let you save on bytes, or let you drag megabytes.

I'm seeing both cultures, and hoping that the lighter wins.

But the dichotomy is a interesting statement on how the wider public thinks.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#42

Post by tannhaeuser »

shakna wrote: post #39
tannhaeuser wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WA makes it possible to replace entire browser runtimes with proprietary stuff. For example, you can compile WebKit to WA, with typography rendering and flow layout on a Web Canvas, and "Save as HTML" and other basic functionality disabled. I find it very irritating that TBL/W3C is promoting this and EME. I think W3C should be seen as what it is - a self-proclaimed standardization company acting in the interest of wh…

But still, you can inspect that WA code, and WA doesn't have access to the DOM. Inspecting the EME packet is a crime in many jurisdictions, and designed to be difficult. WA makes sense as what it is intended to do: give a memory efficient alternative to JavaScript in circumstances that warrant it.

What are circumstances that warrant it in a web browser? The things it makes possible can be had with native apps. What it does make possible is a new model for software and content sales. Which is precisely why I find it has no place in a web spec.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#43

Post by shakna »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #42
shakna wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But still, you can inspect that WA code, and WA doesn't have access to the DOM. Inspecting the EME packet is a crime in many jurisdictions, and designed to be difficult. WA makes sense as what it is intended to do: give a memory efficient alternative to JavaScript in circumstances that warrant it.

What are circumstances that warrant it in a web browser ? The things it makes possible can be had with native apps. What it does make possible is a new model for software and content sales. Which is precisely why I find it has no place in a web spec.

I wish you were right, but the market has decided that the web is the next cross-platform framework.

If this has to happen, let's make it work in a way that doesn't let the stupidest ideas survive. Using WA still requires JS to interact with the user. Which is far better than the monstrosities that JS is being forced to perform at the moment.

Some simple, relatively sane things that WA can do, but JS is a bad choice for:

* Client-side encryption/decryption

* Socket management

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#44

Post by mborch »

The new web needs to be distributed in a privacy-preserving sense. Today, you can't realistically browse the web without getting identified and – generally speaking – geolocated.

What we need is a model where you pull information you request from distributed and diverse pools of public domain content.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#45

Post by gkya »

simplehuman wrote: post #29

For a start we need to get rid of this ad driven model. But this is not going to happen because people are addicted to free. Its like a drug.

Nope, just that quality content that's worthy of my $$ is mostly produced by bloggers that don't really ask for money. How many sites are there that are as good as LWN?

Ad network business is a big balloon soon to explode as the amount of actual customers you get is so little. Guess most advertisers know this but still publish ads because they're not too expensive to not do. When is the last time you willingly clicked an ad? I believe in the past ten years I only willingly clicked less than five ads.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#46

Post by diesal11 »

gkya wrote: post #45
simplehuman wrote: post #29

For a start we need to get rid of this ad driven model. But this is not going to happen because people are addicted to free. Its like a drug.

Nope, just that quality content that's worthy of my $$ is mostly produced by bloggers that don't really ask for money. How many sites are there that are as good as LWN? Ad network business is a big balloon soon to explode as the amount of actual customers you get is so little. Guess most advertisers know this but still publish ads because they're not too expensive to not do. When is the last time you willingly clicke…

Advertising isn't just about clicks/conversions. It's also about brand/product exposure.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#47

Post by jraedisch »

Andrenid wrote: post #2

I would truly love a new "web" which is effectively style-free. I think the existing one is fine to continue for the general public, online shopping, social networks, etc.. but a parallel information-dense system that uses ultra light weight browsers that work on every device and platform, accessing machine-readable data with some standard stylesheet that concentrates in readability, and the "good" bits of the modern…

If you look at pages today and compare them to pages some years ago, it seems to me that because of usability best practices, they have become a lot more alike.

The step to a default style doesn't seem such a large one.

When enough people use Twitter Bootstrap, we could just support that natively in the browser.

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#48

Post by navs »

Andrenid wrote: post #2

I would truly love a new "web" which is effectively style-free. I think the existing one is fine to continue for the general public, online shopping, social networks, etc.. but a parallel information-dense system that uses ultra light weight browsers that work on every device and platform, accessing machine-readable data with some standard stylesheet that concentrates in readability, and the "good" bits of the modern…

You can experience a better web. It's not easy though. You'll need to give up a lot. I turn off javascript in Firefox (must it really be done through about:config?).

A lot of websites work and I appreciate those sites even more. Gmail still offering a HTML version for example.

Then there are those that don't like Youtube. I've had to effectively give it up or find a workaround like youtube-dl and mpv.

What does suck the most is I can't use my banking site!

If you must have some JS in your life, Sunday is my cheat day. All the JS and all the calories you can handle, one day of the week!

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#49

Post by mpweiher »

The letter:

http://webfoundation.org/2017/03/web-turns-28-letter/

Referenced by the W3C, but surprisingly without a direct hyperlink, only by title. A bit strange considering the organization:

https://www.w3.org/blog/2017/03/28th-birthday-of-the-web/

Re: I invented the web. Here are three things we need to change to save it

#50

Post by amelius »

navs wrote: post #48
Andrenid wrote: post #2

I would truly love a new "web" which is effectively style-free. I think the existing one is fine to continue for the general public, online shopping, social networks, etc.. but a parallel information-dense system that uses ultra light weight browsers that work on every device and platform, accessing machine-readable data with some standard stylesheet that concentrates in readability, and the "good" bits of the modern…

You can experience a better web. It's not easy though. You'll need to give up a lot. I turn off javascript in Firefox (must it really be done through about:config?). A lot of websites work and I appreciate those sites even more. Gmail still offering a HTML version for example. Then there are those that don't like Youtube. I've had to effectively give it up or find a workaround like youtube-dl and mpv. What does suck…

Can't your browser turn off JS on a per-domain basis? Just wondering.
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