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Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

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Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#71

Post by metaphorm »

danso wrote: post #51
J-dawg wrote: post #17

As a man who struggles with low confidence and self-esteem, I hate the way women are given special attention over this stuff. I frequently don't apply for jobs I see that I could probably do, for all of the reasons listed in the article. A couple of times I have even pulled out after a successful first round interview due to anxiety about continuing. This is an example of how the "women in tech" movement alienates me…

I'm sorry for your situation but articles like these are looking at trends across groups. They're not meant to insinuate that every man is in a better position than every woman. The article talks about surveying 1,000+ men and women. Undoubtedly, some of the men in that sample had less confidence than some of the women. It doesn't make it invalid to analyze statistics across the group overall.

why doesn't it make it invalid? there are many situations where considering the mean is so deeply distorting as to make any conclusions drawn from it either unreasonable or outright false.

I think calls for greater clarity and attention to detail when doing data analysis are well-considered and we should be _deeply suspect_ of claims made based on statistical aggregates, and particularly the mean average which is one of the most distorting and lossy aggregates there is.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#72

Post by bryanlarsen »

J-dawg wrote: post #34
bryanlarsen wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should be happy, not angry. If companies work to eliminate the low-confidence barrier in hiring it will benefit you as side-effect.

Then why bring gender into it at all?

Because it's the issue du jour. Because it's the issue du jour it's going to get a lot more attention, money and effort.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#73

Post by metaphorm »

burkaman wrote: post #32
J-dawg wrote: post #17

As a man who struggles with low confidence and self-esteem, I hate the way women are given special attention over this stuff. I frequently don't apply for jobs I see that I could probably do, for all of the reasons listed in the article. A couple of times I have even pulled out after a successful first round interview due to anxiety about continuing. This is an example of how the "women in tech" movement alienates me…

That's not what privilege means, it's not an on-off switch. It's just about recognizing factors out of your control that might give you slight advantages over other people. When people talk about "white privilege" they don't mean your life must be great because you're white, they mean regardless of your situation, you have more opportunities because of your skin color, which increases the odds of having a better life…

> Your support for gender equality in tech should not depend on how inclusive and understanding feminists are

who appointed you the gatekeeper of what another thinking, feeling human being ought to think or feel?

maybe you should interpret this as a call to introspect certain trends in feminist politics and communication strategies. if someone tells you "I am feeling alienated because of X" rather than thought-police that person and tell them "no you're wrong and you WILL feel the way I tell you to feel" perhaps it would be of greater utility to consider what the other person is telling you.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#74

Post by J-dawg »

Mz wrote: post #60
J-dawg wrote: post #17

As a man who struggles with low confidence and self-esteem, I hate the way women are given special attention over this stuff. I frequently don't apply for jobs I see that I could probably do, for all of the reasons listed in the article. A couple of times I have even pulled out after a successful first round interview due to anxiety about continuing. This is an example of how the "women in tech" movement alienates me…

The article says the exact opposite of what you are complaining about. It says women do not lack confidence, they lack good information about how hiring works.

I did read the article. Maybe I'm using a loose definition of "confidence" but it still all comes down to confidence. Applying to a job when you don't strictly meet the guidelines is a form of confidence.

Side note: I noticed the article was quoting tired old tropes like "women are socialised to follow the rules", without evidence.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#75

Post by Mz »

Namrog84 wrote: post #3

Anecdotal evidence. I used to feel more strongly of the 100% qualified and I know many other men who have as well. There was a point in college that I didn't apply for a scholarship because I didn't have the 3.0 GPA requirement at the time, I had like a 2.95 About 7 months later I found out that a student with a 2.2 GPA had received the scholarship because so few people had applied, they were able to give them to eve…

Since I learned the lesson, there has probably been at least 7 different times in my life, that a rule/qualification was bent or changed that benefited me, because I simply tried for it.

If you are "the wrong kind of person," the rules are much less likely to bend for you. If you are the wrong skin color, wrong gender, wrong religion, whatever, going for it can get the rules thrown in your face while everyone accuses you of being an asshole who is trying to break the rules while, at the exact same time, they make exceptions for "the right kind of people."

So, maybe consider that is what a lot of women are complaining about when they decry male privilege.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#76

Post by [deleted] »

Namrog84 wrote: post #3

Anecdotal evidence. I used to feel more strongly of the 100% qualified and I know many other men who have as well. There was a point in college that I didn't apply for a scholarship because I didn't have the 3.0 GPA requirement at the time, I had like a 2.95 About 7 months later I found out that a student with a 2.2 GPA had received the scholarship because so few people had applied, they were able to give them to eve…

[deleted]

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#77

Post by J-dawg »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #72
J-dawg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why bring gender into it at all?

Because it's the issue du jour. Because it's the issue du jour it's going to get a lot more attention, money and effort.

It's almost as if companies don't really care about fairness and instead care about aligning themselves with the issue du jour. Imagine that!

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#78

Post by [deleted] »

Namrog84 wrote: post #3

Anecdotal evidence. I used to feel more strongly of the 100% qualified and I know many other men who have as well. There was a point in college that I didn't apply for a scholarship because I didn't have the 3.0 GPA requirement at the time, I had like a 2.95 About 7 months later I found out that a student with a 2.2 GPA had received the scholarship because so few people had applied, they were able to give them to eve…

[deleted]

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#79

Post by watwut »

J-dawg wrote: post #17

As a man who struggles with low confidence and self-esteem, I hate the way women are given special attention over this stuff. I frequently don't apply for jobs I see that I could probably do, for all of the reasons listed in the article. A couple of times I have even pulled out after a successful first round interview due to anxiety about continuing. This is an example of how the "women in tech" movement alienates me…

According to article, lack of confidence was NOT the issue in play.

So this is more about you making assumption

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#80

Post by Mz »

J-dawg wrote: post #74
Mz wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says the exact opposite of what you are complaining about. It says women do not lack confidence, they lack good information about how hiring works.

I did read the article. Maybe I'm using a loose definition of "confidence" but it still all comes down to confidence. Applying to a job when you don't strictly meet the guidelines is a form of confidence. Side note: I noticed the article was quoting tired old tropes like "women are socialised to follow the rules", without evidence.

I am generally sympathetic to your view that a lot of women do things that actively alienate men, but you come across here as having baggage and just wanting to vent, not discuss the actual points of this actual article.

So, I think this is sort of the pot calling the kettle black.

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