Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#51

Post by danso » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:50 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #17

As a man who struggles with low confidence and self-esteem, I hate the way women are given special attention over this stuff. I frequently don't apply for jobs I see that I could probably do, for all of the reasons listed in the article. A couple of times I have even pulled out after a successful first round interview due to anxiety about continuing. This is an example of how the "women in tech" movement alienates me…

I'm sorry for your situation but articles like these are looking at trends across groups. They're not meant to insinuate that every man is in a better position than every woman. The article talks about surveying 1,000+ men and women. Undoubtedly, some of the men in that sample had less confidence than some of the women. It doesn't make it invalid to analyze statistics across the group overall.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#52

Post by danso » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:51 PM UTC

wmccullough wrote: post #40

Fraztastic wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe put the slightest bit of effort into researching this. Look at yourself. You got the job, right? You don't want to admit this to yourself, but it was easier for you than a woman.

>Look at yourself. You got the job, right? You don't want to admit this to yourself, but it was easier for you than a woman Based on what evidence do you make this claim? I'm not saying this isn't the case, but can you provide evidence?

What evidence would satisfy you?

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#53

Post by watwut » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:52 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #17

As a man who struggles with low confidence and self-esteem, I hate the way women are given special attention over this stuff. I frequently don't apply for jobs I see that I could probably do, for all of the reasons listed in the article. A couple of times I have even pulled out after a successful first round interview due to anxiety about continuing. This is an example of how the "women in tech" movement alienates me…

Gender has a bit to do with it currently tho. I have met people who openly questioned my choice of career based on gender and stopped only when I proved myself - that made me assume I am less likely to suceed by bluffing like many guys do. I still think so.

You don't have that factor, through your condition sounds pretty bad.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#54

Post by gone35 » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:52 PM UTC

wmccullough wrote: post #26

Fraztastic wrote: post #18

You realize there's actually a severe gender imbalance in tech and most high paying careers, right? You realize you are privileged, in so many ways, whether or not you want to recognize it, right?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but can you provide examples of how privileged men are? Specifically, can you provide examples of how the person you responded to is privileged without meeting them? Can you also please cite reputable sources? This is the other source of alienation. Enforcing guilt onto someone based on how they were born (e.g. Gender, race). The last time I checked, this is outright bigotry.…

You can easily find the evidence yourself, if you care. It's everywhere in the literature.

For starters though, try this dumb little quiz (not that I expect it will change your mind):

https://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/how-privileged-are-you

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#55

Post by Mz » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:53 PM UTC

Fraztastic wrote: post #49

the_gastropod wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There absolutely is. What are you suggesting? The "privilege" slinging used to belittle the accomplishments of people based on birth attributes _is_ rather obnoxious. To pretend that, for example, women are universally less privileged than men is of course ridiculous. Paris Hilton is clearly more privileged than a low-income boy growing up in Flint, Michigan.

Obviously true. Women as a group are shorter than men as group, but some women are taller than some men. That seems so trivially obvious as to not bear mentioning. But, there's a substantial amount of evidence that if you pair up a woman and man in the same situation, the man in contemporary society has a lot of intrinsic advantages. He has easier access to relevant education and social networks. His applications, wo…

And women live longer. You can also readily google that.

So maybe it is a little more complicated than how you present it.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#56

Post by burkaman » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:53 PM UTC

wmccullough wrote: post #26

Fraztastic wrote: post #18

You realize there's actually a severe gender imbalance in tech and most high paying careers, right? You realize you are privileged, in so many ways, whether or not you want to recognize it, right?

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you, but can you provide examples of how privileged men are? Specifically, can you provide examples of how the person you responded to is privileged without meeting them? Can you also please cite reputable sources? This is the other source of alienation. Enforcing guilt onto someone based on how they were born (e.g. Gender, race). The last time I checked, this is outright bigotry.…

There is no guilt involved. The whole concept of "privilege" is about factors out of your control, nobody should feel guilty for being white or male or anything else, and I'm sorry if someone gave you that impression.

And as I said in another comment, it's not an on-off switch. "Male privilege" doesn't mean "your life must be great", it means on average you have more and better opportunities that may or may not result in a better life. There are obviously many other factors in and out of your control, so just being male is not enough to guarantee comfort and happiness, but it's still worth recognizing the marginal advantages.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#57

Post by mikeash » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:53 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #17

As a man who struggles with low confidence and self-esteem, I hate the way women are given special attention over this stuff. I frequently don't apply for jobs I see that I could probably do, for all of the reasons listed in the article. A couple of times I have even pulled out after a successful first round interview due to anxiety about continuing. This is an example of how the "women in tech" movement alienates me…

Rather than being upset that the focus is on women, why don't you be grateful that there's so much attention given to the problems people experience due to low confidence and self-esteem, and use the various bits of advice given "for women" to help your own situation too?

Trying to help one group doesn't mean you're trying to hurt another group. Focusing on women doesn't make someone anti-men. That's what groups like "all lives matter" fail to understand, and what you don't seem to get here.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#58

Post by tezzer » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:54 PM UTC

draw_down wrote: post #14

ng12 wrote: post #12

Here's a question: what if I don't want to hire people like that? If you know something about underwater basket weaving I absolutely expect you speak up when we're considering switching to twine from seagrass. I don't want you to keep quiet and let us make a bad decision because you're concerned your knowledge is invalid.

Guess you better make sure the people you hire can do what they claim to be able to do.

Or at least what you need them to do.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#59

Post by ikeyany » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:54 PM UTC

This is why job descriptions shouldn't require a hard set of qualifications, but preferences (e.g. strong background in scripting, exposure to database systems, comfort using git, deep understanding of object-oriented development).

Potentially strong employees don't want to get where they are by lying or stretching the truth.

Re: Why Women Don’t Apply for Jobs Unless They’re 100% Qualified (2014)

#60

Post by Mz » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 7:55 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #17

As a man who struggles with low confidence and self-esteem, I hate the way women are given special attention over this stuff. I frequently don't apply for jobs I see that I could probably do, for all of the reasons listed in the article. A couple of times I have even pulled out after a successful first round interview due to anxiety about continuing. This is an example of how the "women in tech" movement alienates me…

The article says the exact opposite of what you are complaining about. It says women do not lack confidence, they lack good information about how hiring works.