As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up • Hacker News Board

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#121

Post by scotty79 » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 8:46 AM UTC

MattRix wrote: post #42

DoodleBuggy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calories in - calories out = fat accumulation. It is literally that simple. It's literally the first law of thermodynamics. Everyone tries to over complicate things, but the reality is if you eat more calories than you burn, you will become fat.

Yes, but it's a gross oversimplification! If I asked you "what's the secret to getting rich?" and you said "earn more than you spend", it would be true, but it wouldn't be very helpful. The fact is that different calories affect our brains differently. Some cause us to crave more food, some cause us to feel satiated, etc. I hate this modern trend of saying "calories in vs calories out" as if it's a magic cure.

> "earn more than you spend", it would be true, but it wouldn't be very helpful.

It's actually very helpful advice but only if you are able to realize that's the only way you can predictably get rich through.

Most people choose to rather belive that they are spending not more than they believe they should or must and will not always look for new job that pays more, and instead believe that they can get rich by using tricks or will surely have some lucky break.

Same with weight loss. Calories in, calories out is a magic cure for many people but only if they are grounded enough in reality of what they can be sure about, to accept it.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#122

Post by piva00 » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 12:17 PM UTC

prostoalex wrote: post #105

matthewmacleod wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps unfortunately, the human body cannot ignore physics - weight gain does ultimately come down to "you are consuming more calories than you are expending"! You're right that "eat less, fatty" is not a helpful message. That's actually the key point in these discussions - we do know how to avoid weight gain in the abstract sense (consume less than you burn), but the implementation of that is what's difficult. Diff…

> weight gain does ultimately come down to "you are consuming more calories than you are expending" That is incorrect, but it does help sell gym memerships. Moreover, expending more calories via exercise typically leads to weight gain, according to emprirical studies (and anecdotal look around gym's elliptical machines next time you're in one) https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/exercising-but-gai... Fat accumm…

No, that's not incorrect. By thermodynamics it's impossible you are gaining weight by not consuming more calories than what you are spending, you don't absorb this energy out of thin air or radiation, you've eaten it, not used and your body has stored it.

It can be that our models for calculating TDEE, etc. are wrong and not accounting for a multitude of factors that might affect energy expenditure but still, it boils down to calories in -> calories out in the most simplistic level.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#123

Post by piva00 » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 12:22 PM UTC

krisroadruck wrote: post #29

lacampbell wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point do people take responsibility for their own bodies and their own lives? We all know the secret to not being obese. Asking the government to step in and help us just seems... childish. Are we not adults? Do we have no agency?

Do we all know? I currently weigh 270lbs (and climbing) and I * Don't consume soda or sugary drinks of any kind * Go on 3 mile walks 3-4x weekly * Have switched to soylent 100% of meals to make calorie counting dead simple * Recently cut out alcohol too And yet pounds are adding on not coming off. I've been gaining about 10-15lbs a year every year since I hit 30 after being at a stable weight of 170lbs for all of my…

So drop more calories, you are still eating above what you are expending. Like I said in another comment: our bodies aren't supernatural things that ignore thermodynamics, it's impossible for your body to create fat without spare energy consumed.

I have dropped weight only through calories counting, I've done cycles of bulk/cut while weightlifting, dropping weight boils down to "calories in -> calories out", we might not have a very good model of this, we might be overlooking a multitude of variables that control energy expenditure but we can't create fat from nowhere, we need to consume and have spare energy to store it.

It's not easy but it is simple. Again: I'm not saying our models for calculating TDEE or how energy restriction affects our body completely but if you are expending more calories than you are eating you are going to consume fat to create energy.

Try this: drop how many calories you are eating by another 100~200kcal/day for a week, see if the trend changes (a moving average works). If not, drop another 100~200kcal/day and watch for a week. Being STRICT is the "not easy" part.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#124

Post by rpcorb » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 1:58 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #50

Here's a nice map of the US showing the adult obesity rate in each state: http://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/ Note that you can select earlier years using the controls below the map. Some depressing observations: • In 1990, the highest rate was 15% (Mississippi) and the lowest was 6.9% (Colorado). • In 2000, the highest was 23.9% (West Virginia) and the lowest 14.5% (Colorado). Note that in a mere 10 years, the…

It really is interesting that only in the last 20-25 years has the obesity rate really taken off. In other words, it doesn't seem like this was gradual linear trend starting much earlier. So, why didn't it happen earlier? What changed (the most)? Was it a convergence of forces reaching a tipping point? Or did a single major change occur in the 90s, such as the food industry introducing a key st of addictive ingredients?

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#125

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 2:35 PM UTC

lacampbell wrote: post #113

prostoalex wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay for their healthcare through your taxes. Every pothole on the road, unbuilt subway station and uneducated youth is a result of more tax money being redirected to the healthcare system in order to treat some smoker's lung cancer or some sweet tooth's diabetes.

Yeah but my response to that is less "let's fix society!" and more "stop taxing me so much". It's the government that puts me in that situation, not people.

[deleted]

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#126

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 2:38 PM UTC

lacampbell wrote: post #113

prostoalex wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay for their healthcare through your taxes. Every pothole on the road, unbuilt subway station and uneducated youth is a result of more tax money being redirected to the healthcare system in order to treat some smoker's lung cancer or some sweet tooth's diabetes.

Yeah but my response to that is less "let's fix society!" and more "stop taxing me so much". It's the government that puts me in that situation, not people.

[deleted]

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#127

Post by capsule_toy » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

sssilver wrote: post #102

As a skinny immigrant who moved to USA and started growing a tummy, I have a few questions. - Why does American food go bad so much later than back home? It shocks me how strawberries here can stay in the fridge for over a week and not go bad, same about tomatoes, or yogurt, or even bread! Back home if you don't eat your strawberries on the same day, the next day they're just gonna be mushy, and the day after they're…

- Most fruits in the US are bred to last longer and picked earlier so that they can survive long trips from the farm to the grocery store.

- Take a closer look at the ingredients in your bread. You're most likely buying bread with preservatives. There are bread makers that make bread without them and those will go bad sooner. Look for sprouted bread. Those can go bad within a couple days of the sell by and the sell by itself is only like 3 days from when they get it in.

- Why would a customer want to pay more for less versus your competitors?

- Ingredients are tasteless because same as with breeding fruits for transport, we do not optimize for flavor but quantity and cost. Good meat is a function of what the animal eats and if they exercise. What you're looking for can be most likely found at your local farmers market.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#128

Post by prostoalex » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 4:59 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #120

prostoalex wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a study with a large control group where this was proven true for 100% of participants. At best the results range from "inconclusive" or "wide variation" to "they tried to expend more calories via exercise and gained weight, oopsie" https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/exercising-but-gai...

Excercise doesn't do much for you when it comes to weight loss. You have to run excessive distances to burn food that'll take you just a moment to simply not eat.

If cutting food was the answer, then fasting would be a conclusive answer to weight loss. It's not.

All the obese people you see walking around are not suffering from a lack of willpower to go on a fasting diet. All the thin people you see walking around are not meticulously tracking their calorie intake and burn.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#129

Post by prostoalex » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #122

prostoalex wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> weight gain does ultimately come down to "you are consuming more calories than you are expending" That is incorrect, but it does help sell gym memerships. Moreover, expending more calories via exercise typically leads to weight gain, according to emprirical studies (and anecdotal look around gym's elliptical machines next time you're in one) https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/exercising-but-gai... Fat accumm…

No, that's not incorrect. By thermodynamics it's impossible you are gaining weight by not consuming more calories than what you are spending, you don't absorb this energy out of thin air or radiation, you've eaten it, not used and your body has stored it. It can be that our models for calculating TDEE, etc. are wrong and not accounting for a multitude of factors that might affect energy expenditure but still, it boil…

Calorie is a unit of energy. Wooden logs have calories, and so does paper and chalk. Leaving safety concerns aside, I cannot substitute my salad with some paper I can get from the shredder. If I did, I am unlikely to get extremely obese on shredded paper diet, as most of it is fiber, so it just hits the output channel of the digestive track.

Calorie present != calorie consumed != calorie processed by digestive system != calorie deposited in the fat tissue

If all calories were the same, consuming 300 calories from a can of Coke and consuming 300 calories of green salad would lead to same outcomes. In long term they do not.

Re: As obesity keeps rising, more Americans are just giving up

#130

Post by prostoalex » Thu, Mar 09, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

sn9 wrote: post #118

prostoalex wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> weight gain does ultimately come down to "you are consuming more calories than you are expending" That is incorrect, but it does help sell gym memerships. Moreover, expending more calories via exercise typically leads to weight gain, according to emprirical studies (and anecdotal look around gym's elliptical machines next time you're in one) https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/exercising-but-gai... Fat accumm…

From the link: "While this study didn’t track the women’s eating and movement habits away from the lab, it is likely that those who gained weight began eating more and moving less when they weren’t on the treadmills, “probably without meaning to,” Dr. Gaesser said." Expending more calories via exercise increases one's weight when you eat more calories than you burned. There's nothing new there.

The number of studies where participants ate less, engaged in more exercise and consistently lost weight is 0, though.

You'd think with a thesis this obvious it should be relatively easy to reproduce.

Hard to discuss the specifics of this exact experiment without knowing the details, but you have the control group that admits they have a weight problem and honestly tries to lose weight by signing up for this experiment. All of a sudden they turn into a bunch of cheaters buying up passes to an all-you-can-eat buffet? Is every obese person walking around extremely weak-willed? Is every thin person you see meticulously tracking their caloric intake and output?

What about entire countries that have low obesity rates? Are French or Koreans strong-willed at national level, consistently under-eating and over-exercising?