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Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

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Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#361

Post by toomuchtodo »

refurb wrote: post #282
enraged_camel wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide any arguments (or, even better, empirical evidence) as to why the government has more waste, incompetence and corruption than the private sector?

I'm not arguing one is better than the other. Just that both system are run by humans so I wouldn't say you'd have less corruption or waste in one or the other.

I can vote out government representatives; I cannot vote out unregulated companies doing damage in a marketplace.

Government provided services provide the opportunity for total transparency; this is not the case in the private sector.

EDIT: @refurb: You're confusing a free market with what the United States has. A free market it ain't (especially regarding healthcare).

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#362

Post by mozumder »

mcbruiser wrote: post #316
mozumder wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the deal with citizenship - we allow you to live with us as long as you pay for other people. In particular, paying for people that don't make good decisions for themselves. Which is fine, since everyone is poorer than someone else. No one is interested in allowing you to live in a country without paying for it. You live under the permission of others. Them's the rules - take it or leave it.

you allow me to? so what if I stop working and pay no taxes? do I have to leave? you sound very self righteous. I assume you're a typical liberal. do you realize you're making an argument against illegal immigration?

As a typical self-righteous liberal, I'll just say that: illegal immigrants pay taxes.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#364

Post by ThomPete »

jartelt wrote: post #293
ThomPete wrote: post #48

Here is the problem. How do you deal with illegal immigrants? At least in the current system there are ways for them to get treated, but in a single payer system? Single-payer works great in countries were everyone have a ssn. Not sure its feasible in the US as much as i think it would be great.

You just treat them like anyone else and the cost gets rolled into the cost of coverage for everyone. Hospitals and ERs are already required to treat people who come in regardless of whether they are legal/illegal or have/don't have insurance. So... we pay for their (and citizens who can't afford their coverage) care anyways. With single payer that cost would just be spread across everyone in the state rather than sp…

In a single payer system thats not going to work. Keep in mind that you don't make money anymore you have a taxpayer paid budget. Thats not going to leave room for that.

That they are required to treat is even worse for a budget it wouldnt hold long.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#365

Post by mindcrime »

ceejayoz wrote: post #195
mindcrime wrote: post #175

so should the government force those people to spend their earned income on healthcare for others? Absolutely not. Pretty much any question that starts with "should the government force ..." can be answered "no". You earned your income, it's yours and it should be up to you how to spend it. Using force / aggression (aka the government forcing you to do something) is a violation of your most fundamental rights, and st…

> Using force / aggression (aka the government forcing you to do something) is a violation of your most fundamental rights, and strips you of your agency and dignity as a human being. So you assert, as if this were universally accepted. I assert being bankrupted or killed for want of affordable, accessible healthcare is a violation of my most fundamental rights, and strips me of agency and dignity as a human being.

I assert being bankrupted

How is being bankrupted a violation of your rights? If anything, it would seem that it's the opposite, as it's your creditors who lose something that you had committed to repay them, no?

affordable, accessible healthcare

You have the right to purchase as much health-care as you can, based on some balance between what you want and can afford. But on what basis do you assert that the world owes you health-care? In the absence of any other system, would you say that it's OK to stick a gun in the face of a doctor and command her to treat you for free? Are you entitled to medical care to the point that your "right" trumps the rights of others to avoid coercive force?

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#366

Post by DrScump »

some-guy wrote: post #222
FT_intern wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a quick search and an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants pay an estimated $11.6 billion in taxes, so $1,000 per person. It's a huge net loss. Not to mention the fallout from stolen SSNs and creating demand for stolen SSNs

When I worked a minimum wage job after high school full time I paid zero in taxes, and I'm a citizen.

We're not counting working illegally, "under the table".

Even (legal) minimum wage workers pay full FICA and Medicare tax.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#367

Post by Apocryphon »

tylersmith wrote: post #358
Apocryphon wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No man is an island, but if you want to try, there's still wilderness out there to build utopian Galt's Gulches without even having to seastead.

Yes, we're working on it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOubCHLXT6A

Enjoy your right of exit!

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#368

Post by mullen »

ra1n85 wrote: post #170
notliketherest wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the insurance companies dance with the healthcare providers. Over many decades, the insurance companies have negotiated payments much less than the quoted payment. In turn, the healthcare providers raise their rates in order to make sure they can still make money even with the discount they give insurance. When the time comes for the insurance companies to renegotiate, the same thing happens, and the healthcare…

Great insights - never considered this. I can't imagine that insurance not being available for purchase across state lines is helping here, either.

There are several states where health insurance sells across state lines. It does not lower the price of health insurance.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#369

Post by weaksauce »

refurb wrote: post #209
tempestn wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like most of the complaints about healthcare now relate to unpredictable costs and complexity though. I'm not sure the simplicity and stress-reduction of a single-payer system really are appreciated. I'm Canadian, and our system is fair from perfect. That said, it's hard for me to comprehend the stories I regularly read about people's experiences in the American system, trying to decide on plans, sacrificing…

As a Canadian as well, I appreciate you being up front about the drawbacks of our system as well. I've heard so many American's say "oh, the Canadian system is so much better". Is it better in coverage? Obviously! However, when I ask if they'd be ok waiting over a year for joint replacement surgery, they get a weird look on their face. Or, if they have cancer, they aren't going to get to go to the best cancer center…

so I recall back in the day when I was in highschool watching a guy on tv blow his brains out on an overpass with a shotgun because apparently his hmo(managed care insurance with a bunch of bullshit rules) screwed him and he couldn't find any recourse other than that.

Just having decent health care is a struggle in america. if you don't have a job and you are not independently wealthy you are basically screwed pre-ACA.

Not having a single payer healthcare in america also changes the risk calculus of starting up your own business.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#370

Post by [deleted] »

bbcbasic wrote: post #240
antimatter wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are others entitled to his money?

He is arguing that they are not entitled to his money, but others should be entitled to others (home owners) money. Or as Pink Floyd might say "share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie"

[deleted]
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