Live data from Hacker News

Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

131–140 of 468 posts

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#131
post #5

A well-executed single-payer system would make California even more attractive for entrepreneurship and increase labor mobility for everyone. Life would be much easier if we could start companies or switch jobs without worrying about healthcare.

Completely agree. The trick is making sure it's well-executed so that other states can use it as a template. Once one state proves that single-payer can be done well, I suspect it will cascade inevitably.

With 100% seriousness, if the ACA is repealed I will likely be choosing between Massachusetts (where Romneycare would hopefully take priority again) or another country. It's too risky to do otherwise.

My extended and immediate family members have too many horror stories about being denied coverage or it being prohibitively expensive. Like a cousin who had to choose working over being a stay-at-home mom to take care of her kids, since her husband's policy as an entrepreneur wouldn't cover her. She didn't even have any ongoing health problems, just a technical pre-existing condition.

I am unwilling to be stuck in a job or forced to accept unreasonable compensation or a nasty work environment because I have to have health coverage. Which is a decision too many in my family have been forced to make. Many family members (including myself) have far worse chronic illnesses, so it's utterly involuntary -- work or die. And thankfully I have a choice in where to live by virtue of my education and credentials.

I have been blessed so far to not have to deal with it because I've only lived in MA as an adult prior to Obamacare -- where Romneycare was in place by the time I finished undergrad. But I've heard enough first hand accounts and seen the suffering that kind of horrible choice creates. And the absolutely perverse incentives it puts onto the job market, and onto individuals. Health care is not a voluntary market, and treating it like one is bonkers.

Now I'm in California. I seriously doubt I will be able to stay without a guarantee that I can manage medical expenses, and I'm definitively privileged economically compared to the majority of the US population.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#132
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't seem like a hard sell to get Oregon & Washington on board, politically.

But it would require the consent of Congress, per the Constitution: "No State shall, without the Consent of Congress... enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State." I don't see that happening.

IANAL, but the wikipedia page on Interstate Compact states that "Not all compacts between states require explicit Congressional approval - the Supreme Court ruled in Virginia v. Tennessee that only those agreements which would increase the power of states at the expense of the federal government required it."

I'm not sure this would cause the federal government to lose any power, especially if the ACA was repealed.

Also, if the bill allowing for interstate healthcare exchanges were passed it would seem to imply that states are allowed to cooperate on healthcare?

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[2] is about CalPERS, which is separate from the budget of the State. There may be a current budget shortfall, but CalPERS is fine (it is the largest non-country pension fund in the world; and comes in the top 10 when listed among countries). [3] mentions that tax revenues will fall because of the end of temporary tax increases; those increases are likely to be renewed. Categorizing these as 'severe budget issues' is…

> as a Californian...I'd rather that people like me... There is crux of the issue: not everyone shares the same opinion and belief, so should the government force those people to spend their earned income on healthcare for others? Personally I think it won't end up how you anticipate but that's just me. Right now the working people of America are already subsidizing healthcare for the masses and all I ever hear is pe…

Yeah, that's pretty much what taxes are for. Funding the government which is what keeps us in line and keeps us from acting like the apes that we are. Part of not being apes is supporting people who won the life-disaster-lottery (which, if you think about it, could be you in 1 year).

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#134
post #72

A single payer system is a step in the right direction, however, there are deeper issues with the American healthcare system. The unit cost of healthcare is so much higher than in other developed countries. In British Columbia, physicians bill at total of around $31 CAD ($23 USD) for a standard office visit. They pay all their overhead out of this fee. Typically doctors keep 65% of their billings and the offices take…

It's the insurance companies dance with the healthcare providers. Over many decades, the insurance companies have negotiated payments much less than the quoted payment. In turn, the healthcare providers raise their rates in order to make sure they can still make money even with the discount they give insurance. When the time comes for the insurance companies to renegotiate, the same thing happens, and the healthcare providers raise their rates. This works fine for those of us who have insurance, but for non insured individuals, they have to pay the "actual" rate - which has been inflated because of the insurance company discount! This has been going on for many decades.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[2] is about CalPERS, which is separate from the budget of the State. There may be a current budget shortfall, but CalPERS is fine (it is the largest non-country pension fund in the world; and comes in the top 10 when listed among countries). [3] mentions that tax revenues will fall because of the end of temporary tax increases; those increases are likely to be renewed. Categorizing these as 'severe budget issues' is…

> as a Californian...I'd rather that people like me... There is crux of the issue: not everyone shares the same opinion and belief, so should the government force those people to spend their earned income on healthcare for others? Personally I think it won't end up how you anticipate but that's just me. Right now the working people of America are already subsidizing healthcare for the masses and all I ever hear is pe…

The problem with this frame is that it assumes costs under a more socialized system wouldn't budge, making a single-payer system nothing more that simple wealth-transfer.

The thing to recognize is that the every-person-for-themselves approach leads to outcomes that drive costs up extraordinarily. Avoiding the US model is why every other OECD country offers universal coverage and boasts longer lifespans, even though health care costs them one half to two thirds less a portion of their GDP.

For all its bleeding-heart, hippy commie values, the major advantage of single-payer is massively reducing the costs of health care, and making life very hard for anyone not directly creating value. This is bad news for rent-seeking holders of pharma patents and CEOs of private insurance companies making $20 million per year, good news for just about everyone else.

It comes down to this: will you accept that some forms of socialism work in return for getting a better deal on health care and the indirect benefits of living in a society where access is a given? Or are you so ideologically committed to free-market fundamentalism that you would rather waste more of your own money and live in a more unstable society because hey, that's how John Wayne did it.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It creates a very different mindset. Danes aside, are you saying that single payer healthcare would convince Californians to be more conservative towards entrepreneurship?

No i am saying that its not going to change anything and that longer term it changes how people think of risk.

I find that a bold assertion.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[2] is about CalPERS, which is separate from the budget of the State. There may be a current budget shortfall, but CalPERS is fine (it is the largest non-country pension fund in the world; and comes in the top 10 when listed among countries). [3] mentions that tax revenues will fall because of the end of temporary tax increases; those increases are likely to be renewed. Categorizing these as 'severe budget issues' is…

> as a Californian...I'd rather that people like me... There is crux of the issue: not everyone shares the same opinion and belief, so should the government force those people to spend their earned income on healthcare for others? Personally I think it won't end up how you anticipate but that's just me. Right now the working people of America are already subsidizing healthcare for the masses and all I ever hear is pe…

It seems like most of the complaints about healthcare now relate to unpredictable costs and complexity though. I'm not sure the simplicity and stress-reduction of a single-payer system really are appreciated. I'm Canadian, and our system is fair from perfect. That said, it's hard for me to comprehend the stories I regularly read about people's experiences in the American system, trying to decide on plans, sacrificing care due to cost, even just having to figure out what hospital they can go to when they need one. All this hassle has an effect that's significant but difficult to quantify.

I even have one personal anecdote - on a recent trip to Disneyland with some friends, a friend of mine got sick and needed to see a doctor. He had purchased travel insurance, so called the insurance company to figure out where to go. It turned out that the only walk-in clinics covered were halfway across LA. There were other clinics within blocks of our hotel, but they weren't covered. So, he basically wasted an entire day. Now, compared to serious healthcare issues, obviously this isn't a big deal. But still, the experience was just alien to us. Here, if you need to see a doctor, you either book an appointment with your family doctor, or if you need to see someone sooner or it's more convenient or whatever, you just go to a clinic. Any clinic doctor will see you, and will bill MSP (the provincial health plan).

Again, our system isn't perfect. Compared to someone with good coverage in the US, our wait lists for major procedures are generally longer. It's occasionally debated whether private clinics should be allowed to perform these procedures, allowing people who can afford it to jump the queue. The theory is that this leaves more public resources for everyone else, so it's win-win. However, generally politicians steer clear of anything that sounds like private health care, because in general people fear any erosion of the public system. (For example by having good doctors go to private clinics.)

Anyway, that was a bit of a tangent. The point is, there are intangible benefits to single payer healthcare that I don't see often discussed in the US.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#138
post #30

I'm excited to see this show up on hacker news. As a Santa Monica resident, I'd gladly pay more in taxes for universal coverage. The only way that we are going to achieve federal universal coverage is via states paving the way. Just as "Romney care" was a predecessor to the ACA, so can healthy California pave the way for the US to join the rest of the modern world with guaranteed access.

Glad you have that luxury, CA has some of the highest taxes anywhere and I would definitely be opposed to more.

um, not really. the property taxes are so broken that many people own multi-million dollar homes and pay for them as if they were worth nearly nothing. that said, sales tax and state tax rates are high, so if you just mean that, you are right.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#139
post #32

Vermont tried this a few years ago, they had to cancel it since in the end it wasn't financially feasible [1]. CA is already dealing with severe budget issues [2][3], so while it sounds nice in theory I'm hesitant to believe the finances actually work out. [1] http://www.politico.com/story/2014/12/single-payer-vermont-1... [2] http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-pension-crisis-davis-d... [3] http://www.cnbc.com/201…

> CA is already dealing with severe budget issues [2][3],

False. California has a budget surplus of nearly $3 billion and will be able to weather a mild recession without major budget cuts or tax increases for the next 4 years.

Re: Healthy California Act: proposal to make findings about single-payer healthcare

#140
post #72

A single payer system is a step in the right direction, however, there are deeper issues with the American healthcare system. The unit cost of healthcare is so much higher than in other developed countries. In British Columbia, physicians bill at total of around $31 CAD ($23 USD) for a standard office visit. They pay all their overhead out of this fee. Typically doctors keep 65% of their billings and the offices take…

What are the factors? Number one is that doctors in the US are paid too much. Why is this? Because health insurance is purchased by employers, not individuals, so most people don't see or care how much it costs. This also explains number two - the price gouging by pharmaceutical companies and hospitals.

People will try to say it's because of malpractice insurance or because the US invents all the drugs (they don't) and bla bla and while those are contributing factors, it's very clear to me as a UK expat that key players in the medical system here just take too much money off people.

A simple example is that Paracetemol (Tylenol), available since the 1950s costs about 10x as much in my local CVS as it would in an equivalent British pharmacy (Boots). Why? Because the US market is already used to paying far too much so they have no idea what a rip off is.

Post reply on HN