Even though adding tolls is a good idea, it will just make people angry without giving people an alternative. And the alternative has to be there at the time of raising the price for the road use, not 10+ years later (so buses are in, trains are out, maybe in the later phase).
Buses are also a better alternative because of the nature of U.S. suburban areas - the grid layer, low point density housing.
To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
181–190 of 689 posts
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#182Why does L.A.'s traffic need fixing? We have some of the slowest freeways in the country, yet everybody manages to get to work. They aren't that bad, even the 10.
Elon Musk says a lot of things. That's no reason to think there's a problem.
Our public transportation isn't that bad either. I agree, our bus system SUCKS in contrast to other states and countries. But the Metro system is actually pretty good. They arrive frequently and have been expanding to new areas. The fact that I can hop on the Gold Line from East Pasadena and take the train all the way to the Natural History Museum, or DTLA, or Santa Monica, or Long Beach is pretty nice.
The problem, if you can even call it one, is in the culture. In LA, we choose to live far away from public transit vessels. It's just what we do; we've chosen to build lots of freeways and we're probably going to stick to that long into the driverless-car revolution. It's also not very hard to find somewhere to live along the Metro line and find a workplace nearby a stop. I've done it a few times. Sure, I'm a programmer but, well, choice is a perk you get from having marketable skills.
As others have said, one thing that keeps many folks away from public transit is the lack of enforcement; without a doubt, you'll have to sit near one or two sleeping homeless individuals any time you take the Red or Purple Lines. They always smell terrible, and average riders often get tired of this. The Gold Line has more enforcement, but I don't recall ever seeing people in orange vests once on any of the other lines. Metro doesn't seem to care.
People in L.A., on average, have it good, and we're spoiled. We should all try living in SF, or NY, or Boston, and then think about complaining about traffic again.
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#183Having toll lanes don't help with anything. Look at what the 10 freeway don't rush hour. Equally clogged. No form of public transit is going to help with the traffic, it's only going to give people an alternative to avoid traffic.
The problem lies in just bad freeway design. If you look at the 405 North at the 10 intersection. You're going from 6 lanes to 4 and then adding long merging lanes as Santa Monica, Wilshire, and Sunset come up.
Now let's look at the 10 freeway Eastbound past downtown. The freeway immediately splits in 4 with traffic merging into the center. An on ramp in the center of a freeway!? Unless the entire intersection is completely rebuilt traffic will never be fixed because the bottleneck is unavoidable.
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
Buses in the LA region have a bad reputation because of other bus passengers. If you ride the bus you might have to sit next to someone who smells bad or plays loud music or acts out in inappropriate ways. That's why everyone who can afford it drives their own car: to be alone. The reputation would improve if they could get more "regular" people riding, but it's kind of a chicken-or-the-egg problem.
Have you seen the central line at rush hour in London? It's horrendous[1]. We are talking >7people per sqm, plus significant waits to even get on the trains. But yet, 100k+s use it every day of all socioeconomic backgrounds. I'd imagine mostly middle class/upper middle class professionals. Why? 1) Traffic is terrible. It will take 1hr+ to do a journey the central line does in 15-20m. 2) Even if you want to drive, par…
London sounds terrible to live in, way too many people.
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a middle ground between buses and rail: building defacto rail lines by transforming far-left lanes and middle dividers into dedicated bus tracks and semipermanent bus stations. Urbanized (Gary Hustwit, 2011) highlights the TransMilenio bus system, which serves the city of Bogota. It specifically covers elevating the experience and status of taking the bus by adopting positive aspects of rail systems: covered…
They have the same thing in Istanbul: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrobus_(Istanbul)
If you need statistics for the maximum people this system can take, you can ask the municipality of Istanbul. They also can't increase the number of buses because of congestion. Here is a well-known joke about it: http://imgur.com/5ZFMoMZ
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#186The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…
Those aren't mutually exclusive: tolls are a way to force a lot of people to economize at once, which can create the critical mass needed for a functioning bus ecosystem, which could even include private buses.
Yes, tolls make only sense when there is an alternative to driving. When people have no other choice than to drive nothing will change with tolls. Tolls are basically an artificial added cost to driving. However ideally the public transport system should be designed in such a superior way that people would switch without artificial punishment for driving.
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've taken Uberpool for longish distances around LA (mostly between ~Beverly Hills and the Valley), and it suuuuucks. Having to get off the freeway and get back on to pick up people adds a ton of time to commutes that aren't that long from the LA perspective.
Ok, but note this problem lessens as more people use the system.
Agreed, and that's always very important. I'm just skeptical of how high the density of use would have to be for this to make sense; and even then, LA just may be unconducive to this kind of an infrastructure. As people have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, making the freeways necessary conduits to get anywhere in a timely manner just screws up getting around period.
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#188Aren't tolls like this an incredibly regressive tax that further hurts the poor?
Planners generally aim for a utilitarian investigation of the effects. Tolls impact individual trips, but are also shown (in certain use-cases, like congestion charges) to improve traffic flow and increase transit use - time spent stuck in traffic increases fuel use and pollution, and slows everyone's average time per trip. In the extreme traffic case of overflowing gridlock, as often happens in developing-world megacities, everyone loses.
The arguments are very similar around taxes on cigarettes or soda: A painful measure that may save money or improve health outcomes in the long-term. In the end, it's just one more tool that has to be used judiciously.
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
LA is getting better with mass transit. The problem is it's not running 24 hours. It shuts down around 1am so you it's not really good for doing things at night like in NYC. Also, there's a TON of crazy people riding, literal homeless crazy people, or kind of thuggish people. There needs to be some sort of loitering code enforcement on the train along with more security. I feel uncomfortable as a dude, I bet women fe…
This. The homeless crazy problem has gotten much worse with the introduction of spice. They were much more harmless before but now you don't know when one will just start stabbing you without warning. Also doesn't help that now everyone has expensive cell phones which attract thieves. Once I was telling my friend about how I saw a woman pass out and start seizing on the subway at 5pm on a weekday. I pressed the emerg…
What's spice? I'm assuming you're not talking about the substance from Dune, but following up with knife combat makes me wonder a little. Quick googling says it can refer to synthetic weed. I struggle to imagine something like that turning people violent.
Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls
#190> The reason that electrical power and air travel don’t fail every time they get crowded is that we raise prices to manage demand. Air travel and electrical power: (1) Are easier to add capacity for during times of peak demand (2) Actually do fail (even though tolled!) when demand exceeds capacity (brown/blackouts for electrical power, cascading delays easily exceeding those for ground traffic when weather knocks dow…
> it isn't as if driving has been anything close to free
Driving isn't free, but the costs you mention are all part of the cost to the person choosing to drive. That person has presumably incorporated these into their decision of whether or not to drive.
A congestion tax (or dynamic toll) is an attempt to internalize the external costs that a driver imposes on others; when I get in the car and drive, I slow everyone else on the road down, but without a toll (or an expectation of altruism toward random strangers), that won't affect my decision making at all. The goal of a toll is to make the cost of choosing to drive equal to the sum of the costs it imposes on everyone, not just the driver.