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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

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Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#121

Post by digler999 »

kbar13 wrote: post #70
digler999 wrote: post #67

Some of the cost could be mitigated with "toll-free" options, such as using a vehicle tracker like EZ-pass and not charging you if you travel less than N miles (to encourage people to live near work), or giving partial refunds if you use your car very little during a month. Another option could be a centralized "smart-driving" app, that would act as a hybrid between self-driving and manual driven cars. Each driver co…

maybe you would call this system "public transportation"

despite your snark, yes we would. I dont know LA very well, but obviously the public transit system is broken and the reasons are probably very complex. So yes, a cooperative app telling you which lane and speed to select would be a form of public transportation, using one's own vehicle.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#123

Post by galdosdi »

rebootthesystem wrote: post #42
myowncrapulence wrote: post #3

Imagine how much more expensive living in LA will be. Instead of fixing their god awful public transit (like NYC) they want to punish people for using the only reliable mode of transportation?

The argument for public transportation in Los Angeles is a continuing theme...and it is also one that is nonsensical in the context of this city. The city of Los Angeles, and by that I mean the sprawling megalopolis it really is, simply isn't built for public transportation. A fundamental shift in urban design of massive proportions would have to occur for mass transportation to make dent here. In order to affect thi…

Baloney. Just add a bunch of buses, with exclusive bus lanes covering their whole route. Choose the initial routes so they'll at least break even.

Bam, you have a good public transit system that is much faster than private cars due to being immune to traffic, and you didn't have to confiscate any property, build anything expensive, or do anything else exciting or risky.

Everyone's obsessed with rail, and rail is nice, but if you already have roads rapid bus transit makes more sense in the short run

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#124

Post by mulmen »

Retric wrote: post #110
oneplane wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To 'fix' the problem, the problem shouldn't be created in the first place. Require less cars and make people not need to go places all the time for a daily routine. Adding stuff isn't a scalable solution. After you hit building height economics limits, you'll still have to fan out, and at the same time, having more people stuffed together in a smaller area makes for more people-problems, like foot traffic, air, water…

Mass transit is much cheaper to build and maintain as density increases. Assume every building has 4 vs. 40 stories, now consider how many homes / jobs / shops are within 0.2 miles of a subway stop. Further, how many subway stops you need to pass on the average trip. That's the real benefit to building up, walking simply becomes more effective.

Not only that, a subway station has value based on what is near it so it is not economical to build until you reach a certain density.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#125

Post by sebringj »

Money seems to incentivize people one way or another as I'm exactly like this and I'm sure others are probably too. I hate the toll roads and avoid them even though I can afford them. Lots of times it ends up costing me because I cross a toll road without paying accidentally then get something in the mail, forget to pay it, then end up with some fee. I really really hate toll roads however I can't control if they exist or not. If they are all over, I would really think twice about the type of transportation I take, especially if I didn't want to shell out the dough or had a smaller budget to work with.

Alternatively, the money obtained via the toll roads (basically a tax) should be then funneled to "cheapifying" mass transportation or subsidizing it to be more affordable and a better experience as well so it has greater appeal over just saving money. You then get ying and yang motivation.

This just reminded me of how taxes work, for example, you can shape the way companies pollute by having a carbon tax and promote green by having it subsidized, well, I'm just copying that idea.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#126

Post by droopyEyelids »

maloney wrote: post #53
endianswap wrote: post #13

Aren't tolls like this an incredibly regressive tax that further hurts the poor?

This is double speak, charging someone to use something is not a tax. The fee to ride the bus/train is not called a tax, why would this be any different? Roads need to stop being subsidized, it's the only thing that's going to give mass transit a chance to actually compete.

It's the overall idea of wealth transfers.

We're talking about two things at the same time: 1) A method to reduce traffic, 2) A method to move money from people into toll-road owners.

Systematically transferring money from the overall population to a subgroup is generally thought of as a tax.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#127

Post by hughes »

bit_logic wrote: post #109

The true solution to LA traffic will never happen. And that solution is buses. But not the current underfunded system that barely limps along. A massive number of buses, like 5x the current number. And combined with tolls for cars to get cars off the road. The large number of buses is critical because it greatly reduces wait time between transfers. It also allows adding express bus lines between major areas. But buse…

100% agreed. Coming to LA from Toronto, the biggest disappointment was the bus frequency. Toronto transit has some big problems, but on most routes you can get a transfer within 5-10 minutes.

When you need to transfer on the LA Metro, it's normal to wait up to half an hour for the connecting bus. If you have to transfer multiple times, it's not feasible to make that part of your daily routine so you are forced to take your car.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#128

Post by fdsfsafasfdas »

phd514 wrote: post #6
fdsfsafasfdas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you going to get people to invest in public transit without getting them out of their cars? LA is hands down the worst major metro area I've been to when it comes to transit, and getting people off the roads will only improve that situation—carpooling, public transit, biking, and hell WALKING are all better options.

As long as it's the poor people that you get off the roads which is what the effect of tolls will be.

I'm not convinced; I believe in the power of car pooling and tax credits.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#129

Post by fdsfsafasfdas »

myowncrapulence wrote: post #8
fdsfsafasfdas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you going to get people to invest in public transit without getting them out of their cars? LA is hands down the worst major metro area I've been to when it comes to transit, and getting people off the roads will only improve that situation—carpooling, public transit, biking, and hell WALKING are all better options.

LA is 35 miles long. What would the walking commute of 10 million people look like? So you're suggesting that instead of fixing the problem (public transit) they should start whipping people so that the rich can drive on their traffic-free roads?

I'm saying that the transit pressure should apply to the city and the people using transit, not the roads and environment.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#130

Post by ryandrake »

touchofevil wrote: post #71

The traffic in LA is soul crushing. I just finished a job where I commuted about 18 miles each way and the drive would take 50 minutes each way. That might not sound unreasonable, but nearly the entire commute was freeway driving, which should have been much faster. I don't know if tolls are the answer, but it's probably worth a try. Also massively expanding the metro system would be fine with me. LA needs to try wha…

> The traffic in LA is soul crushing. I just finished a job where I commuted about 18 miles each way and the drive would take 50 minutes each way.

Amateur! :-) My Bay Area commute is ~50 miles and takes around 2-2.5 hours each way, all freeway. If tolls ended up being a significant cost of living expense, it would actually have the effect of making me move even farther away to an area I can afford taking the extra cost of tolls into consideration.

I'd be all for expanding public transport though. Currently no form of PT can beat 2-2.5 hours for me.

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