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To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

latimes.com

61–70 of 689 posts

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#61

Aren't tolls like this an incredibly regressive tax that further hurts the poor?

The article covers that.

Here is the article covering that:

"Tolls may disproportionately burden the poor, but so do sales taxes, gas taxes and every other way we pay for roads."

It then goes on to sort-of suggest that despite this new pain the net benefit will be better for "working-class" people......somehow. No thoughts were offered on how to keep the toll revenue from just padding out civil servant pensions and benefits while the traffic and roads muddle on.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#62

Imagine how much more expensive living in LA will be. Instead of fixing their god awful public transit (like NYC) they want to punish people for using the only reliable mode of transportation?

By far the most efficient mechanism humanity has ever come up with for distributing scarce resources (such as room on freeways) are free markets. The article is 100% correct that pervasive tolls are the only effective and fair way to reduce what has become monumentally oppressive traffic congestion in LA.

Tolls are a monopoly granted by the government, which makes it the opposite of a free market. The real result of a free market would be private roads or highways that would compete against each other for tolls. Neither are a great solution. Simply throwing more public transportation at the problem isn't going to help either.

If LA wants to improve their traffic problem, they need to address the root cause: bad urban planning and zoning laws. Where people work and where people live are in completely different areas of the city, requiring you to commute. They need to make local traffic easier (ie: not force you onto the freeway) and they need to reduce the need to drive all over the city every single day.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True ride-sharing could also help, and sooner than self-driving cars. Uber and Lyft talked about matching departing commuters in real-time, which would greatly reduce the inflexibility that makes traditional carpooling so unpleasant. I'm not sure why that never took off.

I'd guess because people would rather have the certainty of getting to work in 1.5 hours, rather than wait for a stranger to pick them in a semi-determined block of time (or pick up a stranger in the same) for a 1 hour commute. Waiting and hoping that the person who promised to pick you up will actually do so seems annoying and nerve-wracking. "Sorry, boss, I know I'm late again, but a complete stranger was 30 minute…

> rather than wait for a stranger to pick them in a semi-determined block of time

I think the idea is that it's supposed to match you in real-time and give GPS updates, just like regular Uber and Lyft. That is, it's not like BlancRide in Canada (which has been struggling) where you schedule in advance, have blocks of time, etc.

https://blancride.com/

> Waiting and hoping that the person who promised to pick you up will actually do so seems annoying and nerve-wracking

Unlike most carpooling services, Lyft and Uber have strong reputation mechanisms that can greatly reduce this. You can always fall back on a taxi or normal Uber for couple times a month when the driver is flaky.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#65

Imagine how much more expensive living in LA will be. Instead of fixing their god awful public transit (like NYC) they want to punish people for using the only reliable mode of transportation?

How are you going to get people to invest in public transit without getting them out of their cars? LA is hands down the worst major metro area I've been to when it comes to transit, and getting people off the roads will only improve that situation—carpooling, public transit, biking, and hell WALKING are all better options.

Ehh idk. I've lived in a couple major cities, and moved here to LA in 2015. It's not as terrible is it might seem on the surface. One of the major differences that sets Los Angeles apart from other cities is that people tend to live quite far from work because of housing costs and geography. I'm fortunate that I can take the bus (for now) and often take the Expo Line downtown to go to Kings games, but I know a lot of people that live in Playa or El Segundo and work in downtown, or even the Valley. That just isn't a realistic option for them. I think people have to see Public Transit as a reliable replacement before we introduce some forcing mechanism for them to sell their vehicle.

I think LA is probably a market that most uniquely fits for self driving cars (depending on whatever business model emerges for those things). Thing is, I can't imagine the special kind of road rage that'll emerge when you're driving on the 405 and look to your left and right and see a completely empty vehicle.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#66
post #56

What about the poor? LA for most parts, against popular belief, is a pretty homogenous city when it comes to wealth, sure you have Beverly Hills and Malibu but LA is so vast that majority of it doesn't feel secluded. Now if you toll the non-wealthy (the rich will not notice the toll) you remove that dynamic, that headline should really say let's remove more poor people from the freeways.

With any Pigouvian tax[1] you encounter the problem of progressivity. The answer is to make sure that the tax revenues are directed towards making it easier for low income people to have better transit options. Whether that means improved transit systems or income based toll exceptions, it's relatively easy to offset the detrimental impacts that tolling may put in place.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#67
Some of the cost could be mitigated with "toll-free" options, such as using a vehicle tracker like EZ-pass and not charging you if you travel less than N miles (to encourage people to live near work), or giving partial refunds if you use your car very little during a month.

Another option could be a centralized "smart-driving" app, that would act as a hybrid between self-driving and manual driven cars. Each driver could be given "hints"/instructions, and measured on their compliance rate. The reward would be a measurable improvement in travel time. For instance, if 80% of the cars on a block were using this app, preference could be given to hold a signal light green longer for them. Drivers would see a benefit, and that would be their only impetus to comply with its directions (slow down, turn left here, park and wait 5m, etc). Someone who never listened to the thing would be kicked off. Soon with enough users , you could organize mini "convoys" of cars travelling through the city (say, all cars slow from 65 to 60mph for 2 miles, so that the offramp signal could be ready and green at the exact moment of their arrival and kept green for the whole convoy) and attempt to optimize travel for them or give them other perks such as free parking. It wouldn't solve all problems, but it would encourage cooperative behavior on the roads which may go a long way to easing congestion.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#68
Driving technology is 100 years old. The article doesn't discuss at all what technology solutions need to be deployed in order to make dynamic tolling possible. Sure, it just a matter of having all cars in the LA region be fitted with RFID. But I'll claim that with people behind the wheel that it just won't work. Let's just focus on the correct long-term solution of getting rid of the steering wheel.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#69
post #35
post #22

The problem as I see it is that we force everyone onto the freeway. Need to get somewhere a few miles from here? They make it very difficult to get there without getting onto the freeway. There was some point in the last 30 years where city designers decided the best way to handle local traffic was just to force everyone onto the freeway. It's horrible. There should instead be a reasonable main grid of smaller (2 lan…

Maybe we should also consider the concept of mass transit? The increased likelihood of injury or death from increased transit time in automobiles alone is a health hazard.

LA is getting better with mass transit. The problem is it's not running 24 hours. It shuts down around 1am so you it's not really good for doing things at night like in NYC.

Also, there's a TON of crazy people riding, literal homeless crazy people, or kind of thuggish people. There needs to be some sort of loitering code enforcement on the train along with more security. I feel uncomfortable as a dude, I bet women feel even more so.

Also need more train tracks!

Fix those problems people will ride transit way more. Thats the way to solve the traffic problem.

Re: To fix L.A.'s traffic, we need tolls

#70

Some of the cost could be mitigated with "toll-free" options, such as using a vehicle tracker like EZ-pass and not charging you if you travel less than N miles (to encourage people to live near work), or giving partial refunds if you use your car very little during a month. Another option could be a centralized "smart-driving" app, that would act as a hybrid between self-driving and manual driven cars. Each driver co…

maybe you would call this system "public transportation"
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