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Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

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Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#721

Post by collyw »

anst wrote: post #672

The interesting thing is not only the article itself, but also the vote count here on HN. I can't stop thinking that professionals, once strategic target for Apple Computers, appear to be dumped by Apple Inc in favor of high-end consumers. It might be stock-wise OK, but it's a significant evolution. And if I care a little less about a breathtaking design and more about memory bus speed and GPU, soon I'll have to buy…

Yes, it seems like quite a silly move from Apple. I imagine a lot of their recommendations come from technically competent people (developers) suggesting a Mac to non technical friends.

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#722

Post by jmcdiesel »

ozmbie wrote: post #370
jmcdiesel wrote: post #17

I used to be hardcore windows guy... Then 10 years ago I got a mac. I never went back.. But what am I saving money for right now? To build a nice PC again. Mostly because of the exact reasons in the article. I have a fondness for apple... but they have definitely lost their way. First, they were a computer company driven by a man who loved computers ("first" here is the Jobs return era) ... then they became a Compute…

Apple is a still computer company, because Phones ARE computers. For the majority of the population in developed countries, and almost all of the population of developing countries, smartphones are the only computer people have or need. I agree that Apple have shifted focus away from "making tools for people to create things and solve problems" towards consumption-oriented mobile devices. But those devices are still…

Saying phones ARE computers is being completely pedantic.

Of course they are. So are microwaves at this point. So are toilets at this point.

I fail to believe that you just "missed" the real point, that the form factor and the user interface are (and need to be) quite different from a phone to a desktop.

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#723

Post by Razengan »

arkades wrote: post #185
Razengan wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Comments like this make it hard to take any side of the discussion seriously. /Neither/ of the OSes are "Escher'esque nightmare[s]." • macOS Finder: http://i.imgur.com/9Y5hK0e.png • Windows Explorer: http://i.imgur.com/ef7CnJ4.png Alright. Maybe not nightmarish, but one of these IS objectively more convoluted than the other. Let's start with something simple: WHY does the "Options" button on the Windows Explorer Ri…

Perhaps you're failing to view things from the perspective of the average user? I see the MacOS Finder and see unlabelled icons. My elderly folks are terrible at remembering what various icons do, and what error messages are for, etc. I've trained them to pause and read the words on the toolbar, read the words on the window, etc. as they're generally self-explanatory. So the finder that is more convoluted for a more…

Redundant labeling is kludge, not a hallmark of an easily accessible UI. If an element in your interface requires multiple labels to make itself clearer, then you did not design it well in the first place.

In any case, the longer label could have been implemented as a simple mouse-hover tooltip, instead of an extra button alongside the primary button that expands to a menu with a single item (with its own icon too!)

I'm not just comparing it to macOS; the Windows UI is heavily flawed not only in terms of efficiency in usage of system resources, it is inconsistent with itself, and baffling no matter which school of design you adhere to.

The option button was just one of the immediate examples I could point out in a quick reply. There is still a lot to pick at in that screenshot without comparing it to any other OS.

----

As an aside, I don't think that "average" or new users are a good gauge of how well-designed a system is; people can learn and put up with horribly unintuitive interfaces out of necessity when they don't have any better alternatives. Just look at computers and phones and other devices and systems of only 20 years ago. Many will make you go "how the hell did we live through that?!"

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#724

Post by ksec »

coldtea wrote: post #3

> But recently, I realized I’d gotten tired of Apple’s attitude toward the desktop. The progress in macOS land has basically been dead since Yosemite, two years ago, and Apple’s updates to the platform have been incredibly small. So, like creating a full blown new programming language (Swift)? Or a full new filesystem (AFS)? Integration of Cloud storage directly to the desktop? Siri on the desktop? Saving RAM through…

>>and so I was tempted away in early 2013 when Apple released its second-generation 15" Retina MacBook Pro.

>So, you're merely 3 years of the platform, but have an opinion on how Apple "pivoted its attention" regarding OS released based on just a couple of OSes? Because I've been here since 10.2 and most releases weren't about breakthrough features, but refinement and minor changes (often regressions).

Exactly. Sigh. Kids these days. That is like the complain about Webkit being the new IE, without actually experiencing Web Development during the IE era, and falsely claiming IE era means IE 7+, then later acknowledged he wasn't even doing Web Development in IE7! time. Anyway......

There are lots of new fans into the Apple Ecosystem since iPhone. And without the RDF from Steve they quickly lose sight of Apple's greatest strength. Apple is the master of iteration! Very rarely will you see a completely new product CAT being introduced. They just continue to iterate. Sometimes taking two steps forward and one step back.

I agree Apple have spend less time with Mac and specially Desktop in General, but most of the point in article were not convincing.

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#725

Post by 746F7475 »

jnwatson wrote: post #354
746F7475 wrote: post #166

Imo the Windows linux compatibility layer is a nice gesture, but there already existed stuff like Cygwin that did most of the stuff. I haven't really paid any attention to the feature set since I've only used Windows for games for past 5 years and ~6 months ago I gave up on Windows completely, but let's say it give you everything Linux gives you. You can just use rvm.io to install your ruby and then use gems to insta…

Especially for developer-types, having lots of VMs running is a thing. That takes up quite a bit of RAM, disk, and CPU. 16 GiB RAM just doesn't cut it these days.

>Especially for developer-types, having lots of VMs running is a thing

Really? Why do you need lots of VMs? Back when I did front end stuff I used Vagrant, so that's one, but maybe I weren't a real developer.

Now days I work with embedded stuff and only reason some people run VMs is that some clients use VPNs that require Windows, so they are running Linux on top of Windows, but again that's just one VM.

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#726

Post by falcolas »

madeofpalk wrote: post #324
ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #204

Oddly enough, I found that reading the article carefully made me consider switching to Windows LESS. The author's primary issue seems to be the fact that Apple hasn't been packing the punch that is necessary for him, and that especially with his wanting to get started with VR the entire platform is a no-go for him atm. No arguments there. But curiously, he spends the bulk of the article either explaining or talking a…

I particularly found the "x has given up" quickly followed by "but Electron apps are making Windows better!" to be quite odd.

To be fair, when memory, processor speed, and battery life are not an issue, Electron apps are usually good enough. That said, I always cringe when I have to use them on a laptop, no matter the OS.

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#727

Post by Razengan »

tw04 wrote: post #266
Razengan wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Comments like this make it hard to take any side of the discussion seriously. /Neither/ of the OSes are "Escher'esque nightmare[s]." • macOS Finder: http://i.imgur.com/9Y5hK0e.png • Windows Explorer: http://i.imgur.com/ef7CnJ4.png Alright. Maybe not nightmarish, but one of these IS objectively more convoluted than the other. Let's start with something simple: WHY does the "Options" button on the Windows Explorer Ri…

So to prove your point, you take a non-standard folder view on OSX, and a non-standard view on Windows to make the mac look simple and the windows version look convoluted. A+ While you can argue about whether or not the option to modify folder settings belongs within that window or on a title bar, taking screenshots like that is dishonest, at best.

This is the default view when you click on the Explorer icon in the Windows Taskbar on a new user account: http://i.imgur.com/TM8ZyLg.png

This is the default view for Finder on a new user account: http://i.imgur.com/Dni0Kpo.png

The only thing I changed in this Finder screenshot is collapse the auto-populated Devices, Shared and Tags list for privacy, so I didn't have to edit the image. Notice that it defaults to the "All My Files" view which is empty for a new user and would be even more of an unfair comparison to the default Windows view.

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#728

Post by Razengan »

Ezhik wrote: post #173
Razengan wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Comments like this make it hard to take any side of the discussion seriously. /Neither/ of the OSes are "Escher'esque nightmare[s]." • macOS Finder: http://i.imgur.com/9Y5hK0e.png • Windows Explorer: http://i.imgur.com/ef7CnJ4.png Alright. Maybe not nightmarish, but one of these IS objectively more convoluted than the other. Let's start with something simple: WHY does the "Options" button on the Windows Explorer Ri…

That ribbon is hidden by default.

But it's not on the Finder, and the Finder defaults to the "All My Files" view which is completely empty on a new user account, so I changed one thing on each side to make the screenshots more comparable, but here are the absolute default views for each OS:

http://i.imgur.com/Dni0Kpo.png

http://i.imgur.com/TM8ZyLg.png

The Finder is still less cluttered, with all its buttons in 1 toolbar instead of spread across 4.

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#729

Post by reitanqild »

tnone wrote: post #671
freehunter wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And most of your solutions are incredibly non-obvious, just like Cmd+Up. Right click on the folder icon in the title bar? Hold down option to change the right click menus? This is exactly what I'm talking about. Explorer is terrible but it's better than Finder because you don't need to read a manual or tweak the defaults in order to make it work in a predictable manner.

You can right click on the folder/document icon in the title bar in any app, and you can left click it to drag it. The icon, not the window. What's bizarre is how Windows has trained people to see icons as non interactive stickers instead of reactive proxies for the underlying object. The fact that many labels in Windows still don't update until you close and reopen the dialog is ridiculous, as is the continued use o…

You can right click on the folder/document icon in the title bar in any app, and you can left click it to drag it. The icon, not the window.

"You are holding it wrong".

The only reason to know this seems to be because someone has told someone it seems.

There is no indication in the design of the element, and IIRC not even a subtle glow when you mouseover.

Sorry: as much as I like Apple I don't waste my time on their software. Not saying it is bad but for me I had to admit it was a waste of perfectly good working time and focus.

If you like it: good. I know people who seem to be more productive with Macs. And more Apple users is good news for both Linux users and Windows users since they force companies to think cross platform and force Microsoft to be more humble.

Re: Why I left Mac for Windows: Apple has given up

#730

Post by Razengan »

fencepost wrote: post #305
Razengan wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Comments like this make it hard to take any side of the discussion seriously. /Neither/ of the OSes are "Escher'esque nightmare[s]." • macOS Finder: http://i.imgur.com/9Y5hK0e.png • Windows Explorer: http://i.imgur.com/ef7CnJ4.png Alright. Maybe not nightmarish, but one of these IS objectively more convoluted than the other. Let's start with something simple: WHY does the "Options" button on the Windows Explorer Ri…

Regarding the Options button, I think you're mistaking the tooltip for a menu item. And as for when the ribbon is closed, assuming you're using an appropriate language selection I think I'd find "File/Home/Share/View" at least as informative as "4 squares/4 lines/3 boxes/multisize boxes" - and the text labels next to them on the Windows side when you're on the View ribbon to be much more informative.

> I think you're mistaking the tooltip for a menu item.

It's a bona-fide menu item, accessed via that extra dropdown button below the primary "Options" button.

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