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Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

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Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#231
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. There are very strong racial stereotypes. They also vary by who holds them. I'm a 40+ yo Russian system programmer, moved to States when I was 25, worked in a bunch of places from smaller startups to Fortune-500 shops. Here are my stereotypes: * Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch. The language barrier often makes it hard for them to clearly expre…

That's interesting. Are you aware of any stereotype about/against italians?

anecdata of 1: I used to work for an italian boss who worked her ass off to become a professor. I had a lot of respect for her. But I could tell that at some level she had been fighting stereotypes (both on the nationality/gender issues) her whole life. She hired an italian postdoc who was basically a walking stereotype. He never came in to work, did shoddy work when he did come in. It was a disaster. Generally I thought of her as a very "tough but fair" boss, there was one time where she got extremely upset at grad students for using the wrong instrument for critical experiments (but really, they should have known better). But. I could see steam coming off of her head in her interactions with him. She eventually quit being a professor, but didn't tell him that she was quitting, basically he showed up to work one day with no job.

My understanding is that there's a north/south work ethic stereotype within Italy, and maybe that the regional attitude differences are not as well appreciated outside of Italy, moreso outside of Europe. She was from the north. Non so de dove il postdoc viene.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#232
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He may also be in an industry or an area where given a certain bar of quality and a friend at whatever company you are applying to, you get in. From my viewpoint, it's super common in engineering.

He's also probably also a well off, straight, white male.

On controversial topics, we need commenters to pay special attention to posting substantively so we can keep having a conversation instead of a skirmish.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#233
Here's a tip: ask a lot of questions. It shows interest in the role, and keeps your interviewer from asking questions you might get wrong or simply are biased about regarding previous people they've worked with. Strategize. Your interview is only so long.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amen. There are very strong racial stereotypes. They also vary by who holds them. I'm a 40+ yo Russian system programmer, moved to States when I was 25, worked in a bunch of places from smaller startups to Fortune-500 shops. Here are my stereotypes: * Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch. The language barrier often makes it hard for them to clearly expre…

I think this is due to "saving face" aspects of their culture. I oversaw a team of Indian-based Indians while working for a software company in Austin, TX. My stereotypical experiences: - Ask an Indian if he understands something, he'll always answer "Yes" even if he doesn't understand it. - Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than t…

> - Ask an Indian if he understands something, he'll always answer "Yes" even if he doesn't understand it.

That has absolutely been my experience. After so many instances where I found out later they had actually no clue about the thing they claimed to fully understand, I started to follow up with questions like, "OK, now explain to me how you're going to proceed," or "just to make sure we're on the same page, explain to me what ____ is and how it works." Not to embarrass them or anything, just to find out if they were being truthful, which often they weren't.

- Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than take it a suggestion for improvement.

I've seen this in members of all ethnic groups I've worked with, but I've found it to be quite common among Indian developers.

One time a rush bug-fix ended up letting a showstopper regression bug get into production. (The getting into production part was entirely my fault.) The dev was calling (Java) toString() on a value that had just been read from a nullable column of a relational database, without null-checking it first. When I asked him, "do you understand why you can't do this?", he would not admit any error, instead arguing "that column should not have been allowed to contain nulls." (The table/column in question predated his presence on the team by years.)

The answer I would have preferred to have gotten would have been something like, "OMG, I can't believe I did something so stupid, I absolutely DO understand what I did wrong and I'll make sure it never happens again." I don't, after all, expect people to make zero mistakes. I just want them to own up to them and hopefully learn something from them.

That's just one particularly egregious example out of many I've witnessed over the years.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#235
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey. Many valid point dahart. I guess, in 30s, one needs more sophisticated ways to project more or less the same things as one in 20s. I read/interpreted your "wanting" a job statement, the wrong way :)

When multiple people take it a different way than I intended, then I must assume that it's my fault and I did a bad job of communicating my idea. I could rephrase what I meant to say as simply try to talk less about what you need and talk more about what the company needs. Let the company ask you about what you need. As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pa…

> As other people have pointed out, getting a job is similar to dating. Mutual interest makes a good pairing, and two parties that are only self-interested makes a bad pairing.

This is a common analogy, but one I fundamentally disagree with. Dating is about creating a deep personal bond with a single other person. Getting a job is business, and business is fundamentally about two or more self-interested parties coming to a mutually beneficial agreement. I think not treating the process as such, and treating it like dating, are at the root of this industry's hiring issues.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#236
post #158
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few of your remarks are solid in an ideological sense, but sadly the bulk of your comment comes across as "white dude mansplaining to an indian dude why he doesn't have to worry about racism". Racism is alive and well, and a real problem that people have to deal with. Advice like "embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you" is generic feel good woowoo t…

I could counterpoint his/her entire comment, but I'll just briefly say that citing the success of certain ethnicities (backgrounds of the CEOs of Microsoft and Google) is like implying racism/sexism is over because Obama was President and a woman almost became President.

Respectfully, it's not about counterpointing, or there only being one way to be right.

It's more about developing a positive and healthy inner mental and emotional dialogue that allows you to live in a viewpoint of seeing and acting on possibility instead of worshipping doubts to drag ourselves and others down.

Innovation, improvement happens by pushing yourself to grow, not finding faults in everything around you and in yourself.

No one will be in your corner if you aren't.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#237
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could counterpoint his/her entire comment, but I'll just briefly say that citing the success of certain ethnicities (backgrounds of the CEOs of Microsoft and Google) is like implying racism/sexism is over because Obama was President and a woman almost became President.

CEO is just publicly visible example, but at every level in Microsoft there're Indian, VP, managers, product managers, principal developers, regular developers. I think you can just browse/search Microsoft product managers thru linkedin to verify that. I'd be very surprised to see any bias towards any nationality at MS, given >50% of employees are foreign.

The main reason I mentioned the CEO's, is outside of perceived differences or challenges, achieving goals often require becoming a lot better than one probably should have had to.

Attitude, curiosity, work ethic, being easy to get along with and work with others go a long way.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#238
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CEO is just publicly visible example, but at every level in Microsoft there're Indian, VP, managers, product managers, principal developers, regular developers. I think you can just browse/search Microsoft product managers thru linkedin to verify that. I'd be very surprised to see any bias towards any nationality at MS, given >50% of employees are foreign.

I don't doubt that Microsoft might actively try to counter implicit racism which is evident in their demographics, but I do believe there are stats that show there are clear disparities between number of Asians in professional jobs and number of Asians who end up getting promoted from their positions to C-level positions.

There's no doubt "diversity" is corporate bs when it doesn't exist from the top down.

Such reflection also shines a light on how unreasonably hard some people, in any group are having to work to ensure organizations reflect society, and the nature of their sacrifices and commitment compared to others.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#239
post #215
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few of your remarks are solid in an ideological sense, but sadly the bulk of your comment comes across as "white dude mansplaining to an indian dude why he doesn't have to worry about racism". Racism is alive and well, and a real problem that people have to deal with. Advice like "embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you" is generic feel good woowoo t…

What? Why do you think he's white? And even if he was -- his post is full of great advice. Any job candidate (or person, in general) would benefit from implementing those ideas to the best of their ability. It's not "feel good woowoo," it's fundamental human psychology, and I think it's absolutely relevant here. edit: I should add that I don't actually recommend blindly taking his, or anyone's, advice. Educating ones…

Thanks for the recommendation for the read, just bought it.

Pursued understanding a little too inefficiently myself, means a lot.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#240

You should seek advice from people who are looking for jobs right now, or people who got freshly hired (within the last 2 months). If you listen to people who aren't in the market now then you won't hear anything relevant. Things change, the market moves up and down, if you're not in it then you're disconnected from reality. Reality is - it is not a candidate's market anymore for many reasons. It is early 2017, thing…

Can you elaborate on the visa thing?
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