Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#211

Post by jbl » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

okabat wrote: post #49

I work in product management and have been an interviewer in hiring cycles for a number of functions: product management, engineering, design, data science, legal, QA, marketing. Candidates for product management, more than any of the other functions, are often strong but a wrong fit. PMs at B2B companies do very different tasks than PMs at consumer web companies. There are a lot of skills that go into product manage…

I also work in product management and couldn't agree more with okabat's comment. PM means so many different things in so many different places.

One thing to try... if the shop isn't probing you to find out what you want to do as a PM, then you need to be probing the shop to find out what they're looking for.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#212

Post by dahart » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #204

dahart wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I might need a job badly but I find it difficult to show that I need it badly. Okay, so there's a very fine line here. You don't want to show that you need it badly. You want to show that you want it badly. Need it badly would imply that the reason you're there is for the cash, and you don't care about the company you're applying for or the job you're going to do for them. Want it badly might likely imply that you'…

> Want it badly might likely imply that you're dying to do the job you're applying for, and you're dying to work for this particular company. How about not asking people to be "dying" for the job, but just be professionals? Except if the target audience is starry eyed 20-year olds to exploit. When did merely having a good resume and being professional gone out of fashion?

I agree with you, I was trying to make my point more clear by comparing the extremes, since it's a subtle point. I realize I run the risk of sounding like I'm suggesting people should be open to taking less than they're worth. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that attitude matters, and that's not a trend.

Please do keep in mind the context of my words. Parent comment said "I need a job badly". You wouldn't walk into an interview and say that out loud, right?

Larger context, OP said he has a good resume and is professional, but it isn't working. There can be more to it, and not because it's fasionable or trendy, but because there always have been and always will be human factors.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#213

Post by j45 » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:50 PM UTC

uptownfunk wrote: post #131

lr4444lr wrote: post #23

Taking your description at face value, something is incongruous between how you present yourself in person vs. on your resumé. I can't see how otherwise despite your qualifications on paper and in your phone conversation why a company would spend their time bringing you onsite for a specific position, and then find you unfit but still want to consider you for something else. There seems to be a disconnect that doesn'…

Definitely agree with the above. Some thoughts.. I'm Indian-bodied but was born and raised in the states. When I was in my early 20s I lived on and off in India for about 5 years (about 6 months at a time). So I've had a decent amount of exposure to Indians of all types (Indian and American born). I've also worked with a fair amount of Indians over the course of the last few years. These may not be the case with you,…

Helpful, actionable advice. The personality piece is incredibly important, knowledge and skills can be trained, but attitude and the habits (good and bad) we bring to any role are much harder to fix.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#214

Post by driverdan » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:50 PM UTC

throw_xyz wrote: post #132

throawayname wrote: post #87

What are you willing to sacrifice? I can give you an answer, but you won't like it. As an Indian man you'll be discriminated against. Period. Lots of empirical proof for that, not just job wise but in lots of other cases (dating, etc). While folks here will give you lots of tips on the professional side, here are a few actionable things you can do to minimize racial bias: - Change your name to an americanized version…

Amen. There are very strong racial stereotypes. They also vary by who holds them. I'm a 40+ yo Russian system programmer, moved to States when I was 25, worked in a bunch of places from smaller startups to Fortune-500 shops. Here are my stereotypes: * Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch. The language barrier often makes it hard for them to clearly expre…

> Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch.

That's my stereotype for all engineers.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#215

Post by l_t » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 3:54 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #124

j45 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offence, some of this is dubious and degrading advice at best. Don't mean to be mean below in deconstructing the above, only clear. Current heritage CEO of Google and Microsoft prove some things. You don't choose things like the family you're born into or the colour of your skin. It's humiliating to be treated in a way to try to cover it up like you made a mistake of choosing those things. Americanized name - If p…

A few of your remarks are solid in an ideological sense, but sadly the bulk of your comment comes across as "white dude mansplaining to an indian dude why he doesn't have to worry about racism". Racism is alive and well, and a real problem that people have to deal with. Advice like "embrace your proud geek culture and be your own person learning and pursuing the things that interest you" is generic feel good woowoo t…

What? Why do you think he's white? And even if he was -- his post is full of great advice. Any job candidate (or person, in general) would benefit from implementing those ideas to the best of their ability.

It's not "feel good woowoo," it's fundamental human psychology, and I think it's absolutely relevant here.

edit: I should add that I don't actually recommend blindly taking his, or anyone's, advice. Educating oneself should come first. I would recommending reading "Influence," by Robert Cialdini, if you want to learn more about the type of stuff discussed in j45's post.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#216

Post by dahart » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:01 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #203

dahart wrote: post #188

The most common reason I've turned down very qualified candidates is that they didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates, and didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the job they were applying for. Some very experienced applicants seem to assume their experience weighs so heavily that their chances of getting the job are better than anyone else's, and that there'…

> The most common reason I've turned down very qualified candidates is that they didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates, and didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the job they were applying for. So no ass-kissing, looking desperate or acting over-eager at working for some random company out of tens of thousands of other companies like it was a dream coming t…

Yes? I'm confused what you're asking. I'd say generally avoid ass-kissing, looking desperate and acting over-eager...

Did what I said above seem to imply these things? That's not what I intended at all. Are you interested in what I meant?

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#217

Post by appreciateya » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

throw_xyz wrote: post #132

throawayname wrote: post #87

What are you willing to sacrifice? I can give you an answer, but you won't like it. As an Indian man you'll be discriminated against. Period. Lots of empirical proof for that, not just job wise but in lots of other cases (dating, etc). While folks here will give you lots of tips on the professional side, here are a few actionable things you can do to minimize racial bias: - Change your name to an americanized version…

Amen. There are very strong racial stereotypes. They also vary by who holds them. I'm a 40+ yo Russian system programmer, moved to States when I was 25, worked in a bunch of places from smaller startups to Fortune-500 shops. Here are my stereotypes: * Russians are frustrated know-it-alls with strong NIH syndrom wanting to redo everything from scratch. The language barrier often makes it hard for them to clearly expre…

I think this is due to "saving face" aspects of their culture.

I oversaw a team of Indian-based Indians while working for a software company in Austin, TX.

My stereotypical experiences:

- Ask an Indian if he understands something, he'll always answer "Yes" even if he doesn't understand it.

- Indians will not admit fault or mistakes. They seem to take it as a personal attack when you critique their work, rather than take it a suggestion for improvement.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#218

Post by coldtea » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #216

coldtea wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most common reason I've turned down very qualified candidates is that they didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates, and didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the job they were applying for. So no ass-kissing, looking desperate or acting over-eager at working for some random company out of tens of thousands of other companies like it was a dream coming t…

Yes? I'm confused what you're asking. I'd say generally avoid ass-kissing, looking desperate and acting over-eager... Did what I said above seem to imply these things? That's not what I intended at all. Are you interested in what I meant?

>Did what I said above seem to imply these things?

Well, "they didn't appear to want the job very badly" strikes a nerve as implying that.

Why would they need to "want the job very badly" instead of merely "wanting the job"?

And "dying for the job" sounds even worse.

>Are you interested in what I meant?

Sure, but tone matters.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#219

Post by coldtea » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:11 PM UTC

l_t wrote: post #209

coldtea wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most common reason I've turned down very qualified candidates is that they didn't appear to want the job very badly, relative to other candidates, and didn't seem willing to extend much effort to appear interested in the job they were applying for. So no ass-kissing, looking desperate or acting over-eager at working for some random company out of tens of thousands of other companies like it was a dream coming t…

Nobody said anything about that. The point is, even if you have experience, you can't phone it in during the interview. If you aren't likeable, many people won't want to hire you no matter how experienced you are. It's just basic psychology.

Asking that people should "appear to want to job very badly" (and on a later comment changed to suggest they should be "dying for the job") is not merely about not phoning it it, or not being likeable.

Re: Ask HN: 50 job applications, 15 interviews, 7 onsites, and no offer – what next?

#220

Post by l_t » Sat, Mar 04, 2017, 4:30 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #219

l_t wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody said anything about that. The point is, even if you have experience, you can't phone it in during the interview. If you aren't likeable, many people won't want to hire you no matter how experienced you are. It's just basic psychology.

Asking that people should "appear to want to job very badly" (and on a later comment changed to suggest they should be "dying for the job") is not merely about not phoning it it, or not being likeable.

Well, I think there is a semantic difference between saying that they "don't appear to want it very badly" and stating that they "should appear to want it very badly". If someone seems diffident, you might say they don't want the job very badly, right? But you wouldn't say that about someone who seemed excited about it. It's just an idiom. You have to show some interest, but you don't have to be desperate.

About the "dying for the job" comment, though, I agree that is going too far. Personally, I think you should project a positive attitude about both your previous job, and about the possibility of working at the new place. But never act in a way that implies you aren't on equal footing with the interviewer. It should be a discussion, not a petition.