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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#711

Post by matt4077 »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #522
matt4077 wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a system set up to determine what rules are necessary, and some VC-funded bro isn't in a position to second-guess them (beyond his power at the polling booth). Your standard seems to be that a service should be legal if two or more people agree on a contract("providing a service people want and thus want to pay for"). But by that standard, there isn't a single regulation that is necessary. Sell a car without…

> There's a system set up to determine what rules are necessary See "regulatory capture", and all the other ways that system can be broken or exploited. Also see the long history of how regulations written for yesterday's technologies work badly on today's and completely prevent tomorrow's from being created. I'm extremely skeptical that this particular issue could have been effectively fixed another way, because I'v…

From what I've read, it appears that Uber operates largely within a zero-sum space. I. e. they're not build around some innovative technology that improves everyone's life, but have simply ignored a few rules, allowing them to reward one class of people with $1 for every $1 they take from another class of people.

The statistic that's going around is that they're subsidising each trip at a rate of 50% – i. e. taking from the VC investor and giving it to the customer. At the same time, they're undercutting the income and benefits currently enjoyed by taxi drivers. The net effect is both the lower and upper class paying to the mostly middle-class customers. The contribution from investors isn't going to continue forever, so lets assume they somehow find the economies of scale, or market power to raise prices, to break even –although I'm somewhat sceptical because I don't know how a trip in LA gets cheaper if there are also drivers in Barcelona.

So now the customers get rides that are cheaper by anywhere from 50% to 0%, the latter if Uber manages to establish some sort of market dominance. And taxi drivers earning $40,000 are replaced by Uber drivers earning $30,000 and having no health insurance.

Is that worth it? That probably depends on your politics. There's the economic fundamentalist perspective that markets are always fair and if that means you have to work in a coal mine where the air smells funny and by the way Johnny didn't make it out today, then you should have better paid attention in school.

Personally, I think more equitable societies are more fun to life in, and kicking possibly hundreds of thousands of people a step down the economic ladder will, in the long term, hurt almost everyone – the trickle-up effect seems to have much more empirical support than the opposite

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#712

Post by TeMPOraL »

vinceguidry wrote: post #710
TeMPOraL wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are all better off because uber willfully disregarded these laws and regulations. The thing is, we're not. What we've got is a cab company that can offer better and cheaper service than everyone else because it's breaking the law, and it's good at throwing VC money at lawyers to avoid the consequences. What we've got is further damage to the respect for the rule of law and thus to the fabric of civilization, as…

Really though we are. Even if Uber goes out of business, taxi companies are going to get wise that customers want the Uber experience and all of a sudden they'll all have to get apps to compete. Uber broke a status quo in the state of the transportation industry and we should all be grateful for that. They also became a champion for a certain type of activism that I think a lot of us would like to see more of. Think…

I have a perspective of an European. Here on the Old Continent, we've already had that "Uber experience", and it didn't require companies to blatantly ignore the law and burn money to keep regulators at bay (not to say there weren't regulatory tensions, but they quickly got resolved in courts and regulations were updated; that's how a civilized society is supposed to work). So excuse me if I don't see Uber as innovative.

As for their activism, this is the flavour we know from dystopian movies about evil corporations disregarding the laws to eke out some profits. In a way, I can't wait for an Uber in biotech sector - maybe a small engineered pandemic is what people need to understand that regulations should not be ignored on a whim by companies seeking profits.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#713

Post by JoshTriplett »

matt4077 wrote: post #711
JoshTriplett wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's a system set up to determine what rules are necessary See "regulatory capture", and all the other ways that system can be broken or exploited. Also see the long history of how regulations written for yesterday's technologies work badly on today's and completely prevent tomorrow's from being created. I'm extremely skeptical that this particular issue could have been effectively fixed another way, because I'v…

From what I've read, it appears that Uber operates largely within a zero-sum space. I. e. they're not build around some innovative technology that improves everyone's life, but have simply ignored a few rules, allowing them to reward one class of people with $1 for every $1 they take from another class of people. The statistic that's going around is that they're subsidising each trip at a rate of 50% – i. e. taking f…

Regarding the actual service provided: it's a better service in a way that has nothing to do with cost, and it would remain a better service even at a higher cost than a taxi. (And due to efficiency improvements, it could also theoretically provide better rates than a taxi while paying drivers the same, or pay better while charging riders the same.) The entire experience of requesting a ride and getting one represents a massive improvement over taxis.

I don't know anyone who uses such services because they cost less, rather than because they work better.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#714

Post by gregw2 »

karzeem wrote: post #397
nemacol wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if we stick with Uber and transportation topic. Labor laws, minimum wage, vehicle inspections, registration. systems and rules that were put in place as a response to what citizens felt were "wrongs" that needed to be addressed. When a organization ignores those laws then they are going against the will of the people.

When given a choice, drivers stampeded from yellow cabs to Uber. Riders stampeded from yellow cabs to Uber. It's clear which one most parties prefer. And that suggests that all those government "services" around the provision of taxi service are valued at or below 0 by most people.

Actually I stick with taxis. It's more expensive but I don't have to hand over all my contacts and my location at all times from my cell phone for frankly no damn good business purpose except for one's the company won't reveal to me and will vaguely reference in its ToS. Deceivers. Sadly Lyft app permissions don't seem to be much better.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#715

Post by actsasbuffoon »

hrasyid wrote: post #547
konceptz wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and also the article states that multiple current and former employees reported this information.

But NYTimes might be mistaken in its reporing?

I doubt it. Reputable news sources require at least two independent sources before they'll print a story. If NYT didn't have multiple current or former employees telling them about this then you wouldn't be reading this story.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#717

Post by yummyfajitas »

camus2 wrote: post #613
yummyfajitas wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do regular citizens, such as Rosa Parks, not have the same obligation? Personally I consider civil disobedience of unjust laws to be acceptable, for either a single person or for an organized group of people (such as Uber).

Yeah, Rosa Parks civil disobedience was a for profit operation! Please stop insulting her. Uber is the embodiment of corporate evil, these people think they are above the law.

I didn't say she made a profit. I said she broke a law she felt was unjust, same as Uber, and that according to ForHackernews' reasoning she should not have done this. My point is that his reasoning is wrong, and merely a post-hoc rationalization for general dislike of Uber.

I did not make the comparison you seem to be arguing against, namely that Rosa Parks and Uber are equivalent in all possible ways.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#718

Post by yummyfajitas »

steveax wrote: post #626
yummyfajitas wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do regular citizens, such as Rosa Parks, not have the same obligation? Personally I consider civil disobedience of unjust laws to be acceptable, for either a single person or for an organized group of people (such as Uber).

Civil disobedience implies actions in the open and being willing to suffer the consequences of your actions. If Uber had made a public statement that they were instituting a policy to refuse service to city and law enforcement officials and were willing to take their lumps, you might have a point.

And uber does things in the open. They openly violate the law and reveal to citizens how much corrupt politicians are hurting them by taking away their transportation choices.

This works only if it happens on a massive scale. If Uber didn't use this program, it's likely that their civil disobedience would end before it's large enough to get their message out.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#719

Post by yummyfajitas »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #472
hype7 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Herein lies the source of the disagreement. We are all better off because uber willfully disregarded these laws and regulations. These laws once had a good reason, but are now still on the books only because incumbents have regulators in their pockets. As for lobbying to have the laws changed, if you expect startups to be able to lobby in every jurisdiction to get the law changed against incumbents when the regulator…

> We are all better off because uber willfully disregarded these laws and regulations. The thing is, we're not. What we've got is a cab company that can offer better and cheaper service than everyone else because it's breaking the law, and it's good at throwing VC money at lawyers to avoid the consequences. What we've got is further damage to the respect for the rule of law and thus to the fabric of civilization, as…

Consider a hypothetical business in a historical era that provides great service by employing colored people to serve white customers. Imagine said business becomes successful, and even pushes some jurisdictions to change their laws against this practice.

I'd argue that this business is great - it's helping consumers and fixing the world.

One might argue that we are not better off because of this:

The thing is, we're not. What we've got is a business that can offer better and cheaper service than everyone else because it's breaking the law, and it's good at throwing money at lawyers to avoid the consequences. What we've got is further damage to the respect for the rule of law and thus to the fabric of civilization, as people see how this company gets away with illegal activities. Hell, there are many people who are inspired by their antisocial behaviour, and see Uber as an example to follow.

Your argument seems to apply equally well to this case - after all, your argument is not dependent on the law being just or unjust. It completely ignores that point.

Are you willing to follow your argument where it leads? Or do you recognize the flaw in it?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#720

Post by notahacker »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #430
xg15 wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a distinction between staying passive and not helping an investigation (the drugs example) - and actively deterring the investigation (the flight example). That's a valid distinction to make, however given how much development effort companies like Uber and VW invested in their tools, I think those are clear cases of active deferring.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think you are making the wrong distinction. Fleeing a police officer is explicitly illegal, I believe the crime is resisting arrest or something equivalent. Actively telling all your hooker friends to stay home because the cops are out is not illegal. Nor is it illegal to say "oh hi there officer" before your hooker friend propositions a cop. That's basically what Uber did.

Uber isn't looking after its hooker "friends" though, it's attempting to thwart investigations into its own business model which is profiting from contractors operating in a legally grey area in many jurisdictions.

Seems more akin to developing a system to screen guests at your hotel - which you insist isn't an illegal brothel and is making good faith attempts to uphold the law - to ensure you're only earning "enhanced room service" commissions from people that aren't investigating whether they might be illegal.

Even if that isn't an offence in itself, it still looks like hard evidence against any claims they might make of intent to comply with the law in various other cases being brought against them.

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